Ukrainian civilisation (mainly based on Cossacks)

Zaarin

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Though in all honesty I wouldn't mind a separate Frankish civ lead by Charlemagne, separate from France and Germany, but won't cry about it not happening either. I just want an Italian civ made up of all the former Italian city-states.:mischief:
The Medieval history nerd in me would love to balkanize all of Western Europe; the practical part of me remembers there are a lot of civs I'd rather have than Mercia, Brittany, Normandy, or Savoy. :p (I still went Bohemia, but that feels legitimately different enough from the rest of the HRE to merit inclusion, even if a Holy Roman Emperor leads Germany--as long as it's not a Hapsburg with his capital in Prague. :p )

That being said my first choice for Eastern Europe would be Romania, followed by Bulgaria. I'd still love Kyiv to be in the game though as a trade city-state though.
I'm only okay with Kyiv being consigned to a city-state if we get a Russia centered on Muscovy, Novgorod, or Vladimir. There are good arguments for trade, religion, or militarist for Kyiv, and I'd be fine with any of the three. (I also only want Romania if it contains zero references to vampires. :p )
 
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Though in all honesty I wouldn't mind a separate Frankish civ lead by Charlemagne, separate from France and Germany
I would like to play with Charlemagne, but I believe would be more fun if he leads the Holly Roman Empire substituing Rome, France and German at same time. Why these Western Power are in every single game? Maybe Civ 7 can have less of modern West European States.


I personally wouldn't have a problem putting a Tibetan civ in the game, considering they were a powerful empire in their own right when they weren't part of a China.
Of course Tibet should be fun to play with, but will close the Chinese market for this game. What I believe isn't a good thing to Fireaxis.


(I also only want Romania if it contains zero references to vampires).
Why not? The best option to be Romania leader is our beloved Vladmir Dracula.
 

Zaarin

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Rome, France and German at same time. Why these Western Power are in every single game?
Because they were important?

Maybe Civ 7 can have less of modern West European States.
On this we agree.

Why not? The best option to be Romania leader is our beloved Vladmir Dracula.
I have no objection to Vlad the Impaler leading Romania; he's probably the best option. But there is so much more to Romanian history than one psychopath on the throne and a persistent folk legend. TBH I'd expect Romania to look something like Civ6 Georgia: bonuses to defending hills and bonuses centered on religion. (You could take Romania in a really unexpected direction by choosing Isabella Jagiellon as leader with an Edict of Torda special ability relating to religious tolerance--but I'd rather save that for Poland under Sigismund II Augustus.)
 
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Because they were important?
Important is very relative, for me Haiti was important to end world slavery and it was never in game before.
This western countries are "important" because they invaded other countries, it is a sad metric of importance.
I really don't will mind if don't have Germany and France in Civ 7 and instead have the Charlegmagne to replace them.

On this we agree.
haha after a lot of years in this forum you finally agree with me in something. The armagedon is coming close hahah
just kidding
 

BuchiTaton

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For me Europe is like this:
1- THE BIG SEVEN: England, France, Germany, Spain, Rome, Greece and Russia.
2A- GLOBAL EMPIRES: Portugal and Netherlands.
2B- REGIONAL EMPIRES: Poland/Lithuania, Sweden and Bulgaria.
2C- "ALTER" EMPIRES: Macedon, Byzantium, Italy, Austria and Francia/HRE.
3- BIG STATES: Denmark, Russ and Hungary.
4- MINOR STATES: Anything else.

I could be happy if CIV7's Europe is done with just tier 1, 2A and 2B anything else is non playable material, but of course we all know Europe would get a lot more since is the biggest market.
 

Zaarin

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Important is very relative, for me Haiti was important to end world slavery and it was never in game before.
This western countries are "important" because they invaded other countries, it is a sad metric of importance.
Unfortunately, violence is the biggest way in which civilizations make their mark on history. Your own example of Haiti is no exception. That being said, violence isn't the only metric of historical importance. Trade and prosperity, cultural influence, religion, monumental architecture, the arts, legal sophistication, and any number of other factors contribute to historical significance. While I agree that "importance" is relative, to me the more metrics a civilization satisfies, the more priority it should be given for inclusion--and France, Germany, and Rome tick a lot of boxes. (Plus attaching the Holy Roman Emperor to Rome makes no sense. We can debate whether the Holy Roman Empire was holy or an empire, but it certainly was not Roman, any more than the Sultanate of Rum was Roman or Romanov Russia was Roman.)

haha after a lot of years in this forum you finally agree with me in something. The armagedon is coming close hahah
just kidding
:D I've been very vocal about my dislike of postcolonial nation-states as civs.
 
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I would like to play with Charlemagne, but I believe would be more fun if he leads the Holly Roman Empire substituing Rome, France and German at same time.
The Holy Roman Empire wasn't very holy, not Roman, or really a cohesive empire. You can't substitute the Roman Empire for them. :nono:

Why not? The best option to be Romania leader is our beloved Vladmir Dracula.
Well we agree on this.

This western countries are "important" because they invaded other countries, it is a sad metric of importance.
I mean the only reason why Mongolia is "important" because they also invaded other countries, but I don't see you saying no to Mongolia appearing.
 
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I mean the only reason why Mongolia is "important" because they also invaded other countries, but I don't see you saying no to Mongolia appearing.
You have a point!
And I really like to play with the Mongols, I guess the scenario of Mongol conquest of Civilization 5 I made more than 10 times :lol:
Indeed I'm not against Mongols, I just preocupate with Europeans overrepresentation, but Asians are very well represented, I just would choice more Indian's sultanates.

But we are going out of topic, here we should to discuss about Ukraine civilization, who never invades other countries.
As I said, before the war I would be against Ukraine because European overrepresentation. But now, after this war, I guess Ukraine should be in this game replacing Russia.
 

Krajzen

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For me Europe is like this:
1- THE BIG SEVEN: England, France, Germany, Spain, Rome, Greece and Russia.
2A- GLOBAL EMPIRES: Portugal and Netherlands.
2B- REGIONAL EMPIRES: Poland/Lithuania, Sweden and Bulgaria.
2C- "ALTER" EMPIRES: Macedon, Byzantium, Italy, Austria and Francia/HRE.
3- BIG STATES: Denmark, Russ and Hungary.
4- MINOR STATES: Anything else.

I could be happy if CIV7's Europe is done with just tier 1, 2A and 2B anything else is non playable material, but of course we all know Europe would get a lot more since is the biggest market.

Italy should be part of big seven, I'm sorry, big eight. It's not, in any way, 'worse alternative' to Rome. It is a separate civilization which in many regards way superior to Rome.
It's a separate civilization, culture, language, identity etc from Rome, it had gigantic importance for the entire European and global civilization all the way since early medieval era to this day, had temporary period of decline in 18th and 19th century (but who didn't at some point), became united country and remained it for last 150 years, for this entire time was among top economies in the world even if behind UK/FRA/GER, at late 80s it was like 5th largest economy in the world etc. Even besides the fact it has ben a united country for 150 years, with Garibaldi being among its obvious leaders, the fact it was divided before should mean nothing when we have Greeks every game. Sure its ww2 reputation is terrible (which we should be thankful for considering its allies) but it has valiantly fought for its independence from Austrians and on ww1 front, if we desperately yearn for military stuff.

Enormous Italian innovations in theoretical science and philosophy devastate almost complete lack of those accomplishments in non - Greek (Latin speaking) Roman empire*, Italian literature is as magnificent and 'classical' as Roman literature (Dante, Petrarca and Boccaccio alone can take on Roman litearture and it's uncertain what side would be a winner among critics and audience), Italian architecture has beaten Roman architecture in every artistic and technological regard, Italian painting and music are global top tier in comparision to Roman which barely survived (no matter how glorious they have been), Italian urbanization and economy reached Roman levels by late medieval (except city of Rome itself which relied on African and Egyptian grain in the ancient era), Italian cuisine conquered the world, and Italy is like third most popular global country for tourists mostly not because of its Roman remnants but because of its post - Roman culture (plus landscape).

Italian civilization has produced Leonardo da Vinci, Giuseppe Verdi, Galileo, Enrico Fermi, Dante Alighieri, Caravaggio, Giotto, Marconi, Michelangelo, Petrarca, Marco Polo, Pavarotti, Volta, Monteverdi, Brunelleschi, Fibonacci, Galvani, Thomas Aquinas, Machiavelli, Umberto Eco...
How can people look at those people and the look at Rome and say 'yes, this represents them, we don't need Italian civilization in the game' is baffling to me, and how 30 years in those series the civilization which has been probably among top dozen most important cultures in global history has never appeared in those series, but with all respect Canada and Australia did.

* - I have studied philosophy as my bachelor's and the consensus treats Roman philosophy before Augustine as a patch and compilation and few comments on the Greek one, with zero major theoretical innovations until very end. As for science, there is not a single recorded Latin writer of the entire Roman era who left a single manuscript innovating something in theoretical mathematics and associated sciences.
 
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Evie

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Most civilizations can point to an era of intellectual flourishing that produced brilliant artists and thinkers within their borders. It does not make a "big seven" (or eight, or nine) to me.

S-tiers (the big X) are, to me, the great powers/superpowers of history: in Europe, that would be France, Spain, England/Britain, Germany Russia, Rome, and Greece/Macedon (whichever lay claim to Alexander). Italy is not that (without the Roman empire). It's not even close to that.

Unless you include the Papacy. A papacy-centric (so Roman Church centered) Italy just might actually qualify. But since that somehow never seem to be the Italy people have in mind, well...

Even without the Papacy, this still leave Italy a solid A tier along with Portugal, the Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, etc, and we should see them in the game.
 

Krajzen

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Italy is a top tier great superpower of history of civilization building, cities, economy, global trade, banking, culture, art, science, technology, philosophy, naval warfare, warfare in general, and pretty much everything that isn't literally only 'big country much land'. It has been just as long a unitary country as Germany and with not that much smaller non - military impact on Europe in the last century or so. Meanhwile ancient Greece has literally never been united into a single country - not even under Alexander, who had no control over Peloponessus, Sparta, Magna Graecia, Cyrene etc etc - and even Alexander managed to unite it only for what, decade? So if medieval and early modern Italy was comparably disunited to ancient Greece and to Germany - until - 1870, and comparable in its impact in all non empire building stuff to all other big European cultures, I see no reason for it not to be among top 8. It's not like all those nations have accomplishments in all areas either.
Italy had no great empire
Greece had it for 10 years before coming back to split among countless states again
Germany was behind Italy in all aspects during the medieval era (started developing universities 200 years later, comparably sized cities even later) and also had no real colonial empire; finally it had an 'empire', like Alexander, for few years only
Russia had no universities and modern cultural institutions before 1700s
Rome, as I said, had no innovations of any kinds in theoretical science and philosophy until it was on its last legs (if we exclude Greeks and Augustine)
England had hilariously low population and urban sizes for centuries, culturally couldn't hold candle to Italy and France before 16th century

So I still see no arguments not to not include Italy in the 'obligatory top tier' list, it is clearly the most important civilization in human history which has never not even once been present in series (Venice doesn't count). Islamic Andalusia and whatever representative of Islamic Central Asia are probably closest contenders in that queue, if we don't split Indian and Chinese civilizations. I'd grudgingly argue it may indeed may rotate with Spain between being on release and being added in expansions (although personally I wouldn't implode if for example England wasn't on 1.0 release date but that's a separate topic anyway)

I have just now realized that this topic is devoted to Ukraine...
 
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Every country is important, but there is a limited spots to civs in this game.
I don't think Italy is that special and it is very well represented by the Roman Empire.

Italian civilization has produced Leonardo da Vinci, Giuseppe Verdi, Galileo, Enrico Fermi, Dante Alighieri, Caravaggio, Giotto, Marconi, Michelangelo, Petrarca, Marco Polo, Pavarotti, Volta, Monteverdi, Brunelleschi, Fibonacci, Galvani, Thomas Aquinas, Machiavelli, Umberto Eco...
All theses guys you said lived in a world before the born of Italy.
Italy as a united country just have a small empire in Africa, where they fail to conquer Ethiopia
And after have the Fascism with Mussoline. Who don't just lost the WW2, but it is a shame to them the Fascism borns there.

Not just Europe is overrepresented, but the Roman Empire is represented already twice in this game, one with the regular Roman Empire and second with the Byzantium Empire. And now you want more representation with Italy? I don't think it's a good idea.
We need more Civs from Africa, from America, from Oceania who is very underrepresented. Not Italy.
 

BuchiTaton

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with Garibaldi being among its obvious leaders, the fact it was divided before should mean nothing when we have Greeks every game.
And this is why for me "Greece"(Macedon) with Alexander as the leader is all I need, and why also think that "Maya" should be at the best something with some degree of unity like the Mayapan and not an artificial umbrella civ, Carthage again instead of umbrella phoenicians, etc.

Compare the science and art of a classical culture to a modern country is disproportionate and ignore the synergy and exponential effect of a very different demographic and foreing influences. Greece and Rome is one of the foundation of whole Europe (also relevant to Middle East and in lesser degree even Cetral Asia and India) while Italy is another element of Europe, even the idea of Italy as the birth place of the Renaissance ignore the contributions from all around Europe.

In one form or other France, Spain, Portugal, Netherland, England, Austria, Poland, etc. Have examples of all the great things Italy could have as part of the "EUROPEAN Golden Age" but also have what Italy lacks, a powerfull unified empire. Italy was fragmented and under the influence of the european powers, is not coincidence that Venice (as a playable city-state) is the closer to Italy in game. Some city states like Venice, Florence or Milan represent better the role of italian states, and since the Great Peoples and Wonders are already disconnected of historical context and avaible to anybody they still fit in game for anybody that want to hir/build them.
 
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Italy should be part of big seven, I'm sorry, big eight. It's not, in any way, 'worse alternative' to Rome. It is a separate civilization which in many regards way superior to Rome.
It's a separate civilization, culture, language, identity etc from Rome, it had gigantic importance for the entire European and global civilization all the way since early medieval era to this day, had temporary period of decline in 18th and 19th century (but who didn't at some point), became united country and remained it for last 150 years, for this entire time was among top economies in the world even if behind UK/FRA/GER, at late 80s it was like 5th largest economy in the world etc. Even besides the fact it has ben a united country for 150 years, with Garibaldi being among its obvious leaders, the fact it was divided before should mean nothing when we have Greeks every game. Sure its ww2 reputation is terrible (which we should be thankful for considering its allies) but it has valiantly fought for its independence from Austrians and on ww1 front, if we desperately yearn for military stuff.
I would put it in the top 10. Globally Netherlands and Portugal had more of an impact but I wouldn't put them under Sweden, Bulgaria, Poland/Lithuania. If you are talking about modern Italy sure, but if you go back to the rise of Italian city-states, then it should at least be on the same level or above.

All theses guys you said lived in a world before the born of Italy.
Italy as a united country just have a small empire in Africa, where they fail to conquer Ethiopia
And after have the Fascism with Mussoline. Who don't just lost the WW2, but it is a shame to them the Fascism borns there.
Italian people existed before Italy as a nation, just like Germans as a people existed before Germany was a unified country.
That being said there's no reason why we couldn't have Garibaldi as a leader with the civ ability focused around the Italian Renaissance. That's my two cents on the subject, but we should probably get back to Ukraine.
 
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Italian people existed before Italy as a nation, just like Germans as a people existed before Germany was a unified country.
That being said there's no reason why we couldn't have Garibaldi as a leader with the civ ability focused around the Italian Renaissance. That's my two cents on the subject, but we should probably get back to Ukraine.
I need to admit I would like to play with Garibaldi. Most because I would set a scenario of independence of Rio Grande do Sul against Brazilian Empire.
And as everyone here already knows, Garibaldi first fight in Rio Grande do Sul against Brazil before united the Italy.
 
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Welp, here I go jumping into the Italian Wars...
I don't think Italy is that special and it is very well represented by the Roman Empire.

All theses guys you said lived in a world before the born of Italy.
Italy as a united country just have a small empire in Africa, where they fail to conquer Ethiopia
And after have the Fascism with Mussoline. Who don't just lost the WW2, but it is a shame to them the Fascism borns there.

Krajzen makes an excellent positive case for Italy to be considered not only distinct from the Roman Empire but also a European civilization on par with the majority of those already present in the game; as for the deficiencies of the other powers, I think there is a better case for uneven development. Just the very list of those luminaries you question (much like the term Renaissance) is evidence of some profound cultural development in Italy as well as the the birth of modern Italy serving as an insufficient standard.

It takes me back to the old 4,000 years of nationalist history nonsense from my school days, where one could easily point to not only Germany and Italy but also Russia, China, and France as being younger in a sense than the United States. Of course longstanding cultures preceded these counties in the 19th and 20th centuries, but it is not like Americans materialized out of thin air in 1776. One could go on and on, but it seems easier to justify the inclusion of most factions than it is to come up with unique gameplay for them.

Every country is important, but there is a limited spots to civs in this game.

...

Not just Europe is overrepresented, but the Roman Empire is represented already twice in this game, one with the regular Roman Empire and second with the Byzantium Empire. And now you want more representation with Italy? I don't think it's a good idea.
We need more Civs from Africa, from America, from Oceania who is very underrepresented. Not Italy.

I largely agree that Civilization has not been designed to accommodate infinite factions, and as such there needs to be some tact in selection. Furthermore, I also agree Europe is overrepresented (just play practically any TSL map), but would caution against conflating even the Romans and Byzantium.
 
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Krajzen

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I don't think Italy is that special

Yeah, it just carried half of European civilization for a thousand years, covers like half of all lists of greatest pieces of art ever, and you cannot do any primary school history textbook without mentioning it like 50 times, and Western science, education, secular culture and philosophy were born here, not a big deal, as opposed to Haiti.

All theses guys you said lived in a world before the born of Italy.

False, like half of them were actually modern people living after unification of Italy (and second half of them were Italians speaking Italian in Italy regarding themselves as Italians). Enrico Fermi was a nuclear physicist. You don't fact check and have no knowledge about anything Italian.

Italy as a united country just have a small empire in Africa, where they fail to conquer Ethiopia

As opposed to major empires of Haiti, Jamaica, Canada, Australia, Hungary, my own country Poland, Sweden etc.
They also had 5th largest economy in the world at one point.

And after have the Fascism with Mussoline. Who don't just lost the WW2, but it is a shame to them the Fascism borns there.

Yeah, let's just blame the entire nation for despised actions of their ancestors, it's not like every other civilization in the game has the same problem. Haitians killed almost all French people on the island after their revolution (3,000 to 5,000 deaths estimated). From early January 1804 until 22 April 1804, squads of soldiers moved from house to house throughout Haiti, torturing and killing entire families. Eyewitness accounts of the massacre describe imprisonment and killings even of whites who had been friendly and sympathetic to the black population. Women and children were killed last, women were subjects of sexual violence Girard, Philippe R. - The Slaves Who Defeated Napoleon: Toussaint Louverture and the Haitian War of Independence, 1801–1804) (Danner, Mark - Stripping Bare the Body) (Jeremy D. Popkin - Facing Racial Revolution: Eyewitness Accounts of the Haitian Insurrection)
The vast majority of Italians hates Mussolini, not sure about Haitian acknowledgement of the above massacre of civilian population because of its nationality.

We need more Civs from Africa, from America, from Oceania who is very underrepresented. Not Italy.

We need interesting, disctinctive, fun and powerful civilizations which shaped history, and both Italy and Ukraine fill this niche, and that's what matters in the video game, not social justice representation of every people on the planet according to geographical quota. There are plenty of great Subsaharan civilizations I'd like to see (Yoruba, Ashanti mainly) and none of that means automatically shooting down extremely popular suggestions, such as Italy or Andalusia, just because they don't fit some arbitrary spreadsheet political criteria of representation.
 
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Zaarin

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Italy's pretty near the bottom of my European civ wishlist, but I also disagree with virtually all of the arguments against it being presented here.

it is not like Americans materialized out of thin air in 1776.
Well, they kind of did. Americans had very local identities until a new American identity was forged--consciously and ad hoc--during the Revolution. Even while fighting Britain, different colonies remained very suspicious of each other, and it took what amounted to a coup (that kind of gets glossed over in most American text book accounts of the Constitutional Convention) to bring them together afterwards.
 
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Yeah, let's just blame the entire nation for despised actions of their ancestors, it's not like every other civilization in the game has the same problem. If I recall correctly Haitians killed literally all whites on the island after the revolt (except Poles for their help lol) and I'm pretty sure there had to be some civilians, women and children here.
Are you talking about 1804 massacre, of course a genocide isn't a good thing. But was necessary to achieve the freedom
For 2 times the Haitians fight for end of Slavery, the first time they avoid the carnificine but was re-enslaved. The second time they just kill everyone who was linked with Slavery in Haiti, that means all White French population of the island. Isn't a hate of color skin (because Polish are White, but not involved in Slavery, that is the why they was spared).
And it is important to remember Leclerc, the French general in Haiti, was also killing black women and children. It can be sad, but was just one revenge in the same coin the French did against Haitian population.

 

BuchiTaton

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Yeah, it just carried half of European civilization for a thousand years,
Carried european civilization being divided and controled in some degree by european powers.

covers like half of all lists of greatest pieces of art ever
This is clearly wrong even considering subjectivity of what is a "GPA" that anyway are already represented by a not-civ dependent mechanic on game.

and you cannot do any primary school history textbook without mentioning it like 50 times
Then the people from Firaxis A) either never passed primary school, or B) have another criteria to pick civs after 6 games and over 50 civs.

and Western science, education, secular culture and philosophy were born here
Maybe if you ignore the northen Europe.

False, like half of them were actually modern people living after unification of Italy
When the role of Italy on any subject could be represented by France, Austria, England, etc.

and second half of them were Italians speaking Italian in Italy regarding themselves as Italians
From smaller states fighthing each others as allied or subject of foreign powers.


They also had 5th largest economy in the world at one point.
So Italy would be represented by a recent leader?

Yeah, let's just blame the entire nation for despised actions of their ancestors, it's not like every other civilization in the game has the same problem.
Agree all nations did some terrible stuff in their history, that is not a reason to leave out any option.
Still, if the great achievements of italians ancestors are reasons to add them it should be also valid to point the negative actions.


not social justice representation of every people on the planet according to geographical quota.
Social Justice is NOT the same as diversity, many years before SJ people wanted different regions just for the sake to have something different. Many of the early CIV games have "political incorrect" representation of cultures that were on game for fun not "representation quota". Still Italy was not on game but "Native American" did, neither because SJ or historical relevance but just for fun.

Italy is certainly an extremely popular suggestion but Ukraine and Andalusia are questionable, and if those are relevant/popular many people could add to that list Austria, Hungary, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Romania, Bulgaria, Ireland, Lithuania, Bohemia, Croatia, Finland, etc.
 
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