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Ukrainian Revolution master thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Winner, Feb 24, 2014.

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  1. Verbose

    Verbose Chieftain

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    For now it means Russia is not accepting the legitimacy of the current government of the Ukranine. It is officially labelling the situation one of a "coup d'état". (Others, more to the west, might call it a "revolution", but the effects of the two can be deceptively similar — though a coup d'état tends to be a better controlled, premeditated affair, which might be why the Russian govt prefers it, while a revolution is by its nature unpredictable.) The EU has recognised the newly appointed Ukranian government, and Medvedev have gone on record officially calling the EU move "a mistake".

    Speculation about what Russia might do next is rife. Low odds on withholding the credit it extended to Yanukovich. Also low odds on Russia turning up the gas prices the Ukraine will have to pay from now on. High odds on Russia actually making a move on in particular the Crimea. Even higher odds on Russia actually trying anything serious with any other part of Ukranian territory, Crimea aside.

    Might be a good idea for the new crowd in Kiev to perhaps start some process of "max devo" for the Crimea, to perhaps prune back a bit of the Russian rhetoric over it?

    Unfortunately Ukranians politics also seem to have a bad tradition of the current victor harrassing the momentarily defeated.
     
  2. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    What nonsense. Most of the Russians there think of themselves as being from Ukraine, not Russia. They don't want Russia to come to their aid. A few loudmouths do, that' it. Even the predominant voices among them aren't calling for union with Russia, but for federative status within the Ukrainian state. I can't blame them, after the Ukrainian government revoked the status of Russian as a regional language the other day.
     
  3. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Until now it used to have the "regional" status, only in East and South of Ukraine. Now, if I understand the situation correctly, it has the same status as English or French, despite roughly half of the population speaks it. There are still Russian mass-media, schools, but it's unclear how long they will last.

    No official information about changing the ambassador, but I think change of policy now is a no-brainer.
     
  4. Takhisis

    Takhisis excuse me

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    up yours!
    Hmmm. Foreign language… recipe for disaster it seems.
    But it's not the same, in diplomacy, if you have the same ambassador with a different policy or if you have a new ambassador with a new policy. Putin calls most of the shots anyway.
     
  5. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    May be. But we have example of Baltic states where hundreds of thousands of Russian speakers don't have even citizenship and rights which come with it (right to vote, etc.) EU doesn't seem to be concerned about the situation there. Ukraine will probably go the same way. We are finally beginning to understand that we will be labeled as "bad guys" regardless of what we do, and nobody will care for the rights of ethnic Russians, except Russia. Ok.
     
  6. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I was under the impression that these people have refused to complete a Latvian language test - after which they would receive citizenship.

    Am I wrong?
     
  7. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Source?
     
  8. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    The relevant articles are attached. I have more.

    I literally just delivered a two hour lecture on the national identity of Russians living outside Russia today.

    EDIT: I can't get the attachments function to work. The articles in question are:

    Barrington, L, et al. (2003) ‘The Motherland is Calling. Views of Homeland among Russians in the Near Abroad’, World Politics, Vol. 55, pp. 290-313.

    Kolsto, P. (1996) 'The new Russian diaspora - an identity of its own? Possible identity trajectories for Russians in the Former Soviet republic', Ethnic and Racial Studies, Vol. 19, No. 3, pp. 609-39.
     
  9. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Refused, or were unable to. Hundreds of thousands of people who lived there before 1990. Not immigrants.
     
  10. LamaGT

    LamaGT Chieftain

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    Sorry, don't have the time to read them right now but I just wanted to say something: the recent events might have changed this drastically. After all, why keep bothering to stay in a country where the government doesn't acknowledge your half and the other half of people doesn't respect you?

    To answer to Yeekim, revoking regional languages (which already had very little effect on most things) is exactly the kind of nationalist bullsh*t that they shouldn't do. They should have made Russian co-official 20 years ago, when the first constitution was put into effect.
     
  11. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Chieftain

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    Even if the situation did calm, it would just be an interim period before the next spout of trouble. The problem is systemic, there are two different, competing and contradictory visions for the country, both with a large amount of support from both within and outside of the country.
     
  12. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    I agree, it makes more sense for them now than it ever has. But like I said, previously it was only a small but vocal group who was advocating for reunion. Since prominent Ukrainian Russians like the Mayor of Kharkiv have been very vocal about remaining in Ukraine, I see little reason to base an assumption of change in this regard on the fact that it makes more sense for them to do so, from our Western, outsider vantage point. But like I also said, there are also cries supporting federation within Ukraine, which would make the more Russian-heavy areas semi-sovereign, so their language status, for example, could not come under threat as it has recently. The journey from "protect our rights, Ukraine!" to "we want to split off and join another country" is a long one.
     
  13. Yeekim

    Yeekim Warlord

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    Given that the languages are so close it is damn near impossible to clearly distinguish between them, this particular dispute seems especially petty. And sad.
    EDIT: So, yes - that was probably a good answer to my question.
     
  14. LamaGT

    LamaGT Chieftain

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    To add a little, of course that simple revokation which changes nothing is not gonna be the straw that breaks the camel's back. But there can be much worse things like widespread attacks against the Russian speakers, discrimination of them, stupid laws cracking down on Russian even harder etc.
    The biggest issue right now is restabilizing the country which, especially in the Pro-Maidan areas, is close to anarchy.


    Link to video.

    Here you can see a random sh*thead lecturing 2 policemen about them being a few meters away from their post. Basically he keeps asking for documents (in such a lovely tone!) and keeps saying the Parlament approved a law about policemen not being able to leave their posts or something like that, even though the post is at the gas station a few meters away.
    Point is, if a random sh*thead like this can treat police like that, there's something very wrong with the country.
     
  15. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    He is actually threatening the policeman.
    "Hey, you! Show me your documents, quickly! I warn you, I'm armed!"
    That's anarchy in the worst meaning of this word.
     
  16. Takhisis

    Takhisis excuse me

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    up yours!
    Don't start victimising yourself and the rest of Russia, Russia has ethnic minorities of its own to mistreat, but they don't count.
    Not so long as you might think, people can go down a mental slippery slope extremely quickly. People's thought processes aren't always logical, and sometimes an idea that everyone thinks hasn't taken on can slip in unnoticed and manifest itself in a lot of people.
    Impossible for a foreigner. But I think that you can tell the difference between Finnish and Estonian, right?
     
  17. Yeekim

    Yeekim Warlord

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    I've only ever learned Russian and I can understand at least written Ukrainian pretty decently. I can't understand Finnish.
     
  18. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    "Light, give us some light!" "There's a stretcher in a tent there... Get it quickly." "Stretcher and then ambulance, right?" "No, no ambulance! We're not going to save him." "Ah, this is Berkut! This is Berkut! He has no eye" "Get the stretcher, guys" "Stretcher then ambulance" "No ambulance I said!" "So he is a prisoner? Does he have a pulse?"

    (the guy with red cross on him is the one who tells "no ambulance"; and the one who asks about ambulance is the cameraman)


    Link to video.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    I will do what I believe is the right thing to do, thank you very much.

    That's definitely an excuse to mistreat Russians elsewhere. BTW which minorities are mistreated in Russia?
     
  20. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    Elves, Ingermanlandians and Gays!

    GAYS! Here's what they do with gays in Russia:


    Link to video.

    They make a sport of it! The authors of this advertisement would not lie!
     
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