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Ukrainian Revolution master thread

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Winner, Feb 24, 2014.

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  1. ywhtptgtfo

    ywhtptgtfo Chieftain

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    Yeah that definitely would be a mistake that comes back to haunt them. As much as the news saying a split is unlikely to occur, the tensions in the east suggests otherwise... especially in Crimea.
     
  2. Takhisis

    Takhisis is it fall yet

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    up yours!
    Well, written Finnish and Estonian are usually a good guide for each other, although the pronunciations of both differ.
    And what, pray, is this thing?
    All those non-Russian-speaking peoples that have been undergoing a process of Russification for the last couple centuries?

    I don't say that it's an excuse to mistreat ethnic Russians or Russian citizens. No one should be mistreated.
    :rotfl: When do people find so much time to do those vids? btw Gays and Elves aren't on the same category, DM of the Rings notwithstanding.
     
  3. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    Gays are either cultural group or biological. Elves are biological group. Who said "mythological"?
     
  4. Takhisis

    Takhisis is it fall yet

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    up yours!
    I don't think either of us did, Aleksey.
     
  5. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    That was a joke, not a real question...

    I know that Elves are real. And I respect them and their rights! And will never oppress one if I ever be to their forests hunting a bear!
     
  6. SeekTruthFromFacts

    SeekTruthFromFacts Chieftain

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    The 2004 constitutional changes were cancelled by the Constitutional Court in late 2010, on the grounds that the constitution had not been amended by the correct procedure. Yanukovych had spent much of the summer removing judges and otherwise putting pressure on the Court. However, the Court's decision was right*: outgoing President Kuchma had deliberately botched the amendments so that Yanukoych could remove them if they became inconvenient. The 'Orange' forces were never united enough to properly amend the constitution.

    I think that they already have it in the constitution: it's an Autonomous Republic. But that has been played down because all sides would rather be small fish in a big pond (Kyiv) than big fish in a small pond (Sebastopol).

    *According to this article: http://jurist.org/forum/2011/01/jurist-guest-columnist-alexei-trochev.php
     
  7. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Any thoughts on this piece by George Friedman?
     
  8. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Moderator Action: There is no need to get so provocative. Winner is trying to control a discussion that can get out of hand and way off track. Please just contribute civilly with a goal to further the discussion. Please let's keep personal issues and differences out of the thread. Thanks.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  9. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

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    So I posted this in the other thread, but it appears this is the better thread for this
    ========

    So apparently Ukraine's credit rating is down to a CCC level now and facing near immediate bankruptcy? Apparently this unrest could cause massive inflation and is already causing the currency to drop like a rock. If Ukraine goes bankrupt in a month [Since the Russians no longer are going to prop up the Ukrainian debt since the Ukrainians are hunting down their former/current president], could we see a splitting of the Ukraine soon?
     
  10. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Yeah, the economic situation is catastrophic. It's largely due to mismanagement by the Yanukovych regime, but Tymoshenko et al. isn't without blame either.

    The trouble is, and I was warning against that even at the beginning of the Maidan movement, that when revolutionary dreams meet the hard realities of economy and politics, what follows is usually deep disillusionment.

    The EU needs to step in and help, both financially&economically and by sending in people who will teach the new government and their official to properly manage a country, fight corruption, etc.

    Also, nationalizing the property of the pro-Yanukovych oligarchs (to begin with, others would follow) re-selling it should at least help to get some cash.

    A big unknown right now is what Russia chooses to do. If it decides to be passive-aggressive and punish Ukraine by high gas prices and embargoes on imports, then the EU will have to help Ukraine to at least partially replace the losses.
     
  11. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    If you don't see a discrimination it doesn't mean there isn't one.

    So why mention that Russia was lynching negroes too, if it's not an excuse? How it's relevant?
     
  12. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

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    News from Sevastopol', as the locals report it.

    (Translator note: “Bandera Followers” used in the article is referred to the ultra radical far right organizations and parties, that currently constitute the muscle of “Maidan”. Stephan Bandera was the notorious head of UPA – a military arm of Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, which collaborated closely with Nazis during the WWII and continued fighting against the USSR until mid-fiftie). During that time UPA participated in numerous acts of genocide against Jewish, Polish , Russian and even Ukrainian population). Currently in the most countries of the post USSR - “bandera followers” is equal to “fascist” much like “hitleryte”=”nazi”.

    Today, I attended the “anti-Bandera” meeting in Sevastopol. Never expected it could be so great. Initially I estimated that there were around 5-10 thousand people present, but later count showed that the meeting was attended by 20-25 thousand. And this in the city where the average political gathering has never been larger than a few dozen (or sometimes a few hundred) people. Today, Sevastopol truly rose and showed the largest “anti-Bandera” meeting in its own post-Soviet history, but the largest one on the whole South-East of Ukraine.
    The threat of fascism united us all. The meeting was supported by almost all city’s political organizations, some of which had completely opposite different views on other issues. There were flags of Russia, Russian Empire, Communist Party, “Russian Block” and of other patriotic organizations. There were also portraits of Stalin, Victory flags and flags of Soviet Navy. Bandera’s followers (fascists) managed to distract various people with different political beliefs from their usual bickering, and separate them from their comfortable couches, and to come out and voice their opinion in the streets. Hopefully it will be heard in Kiev. Those Bandera followers were awfully proud that they managed to collect 20 thousand on Maidan in a multimillion Kiev and claimed that they represented the will of the whole country. Sevastopol has now shown how many people can really be gathered in a relatively small city, if the final goal was clear and people were ready to fight for it.

    The new mood was noticeable on the approaches to the meeting place and it was far away from the usual apathy. People from different social strata, wealth and ideological convictions joined together in a huge crowd on Nakhimov Square. They used expletives in the address of Yanukovich, fascists, local government and demanded that weapons should have been distributed for the city’s defence.
     
  13. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

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    But the most striking was the list of demands expressed at the meeting. It openly stated:

    1. A new executive body is created to govern the city and the transfer of power to it should occur in the next few days.

    2. The new city Head was elected by direct vote at the meeting. The new Head is Mr. Chaly, a local entrepreneur and the CEO of “Tavrida Electric, who gained popularity by his practical support and contribution to the creation of “Battery 35” Memorial Complex (this complex is one of the main attractions of the city). Ex-mayor Mr. Yatsuba agreed and supported the change.

    The head of the city Executive Committee in Sevastopol has never been elected before. This position was always filled by Kiev, as Ukrainian authorities were always aware that given an elected Mayor Sevastopol would quickly separate itself from Ukraine.

    3. The new Executive Committee demands from the deputies of the city council to vote in favor of the decision. Otherwise the population will disperse the Council and elect the new one. Legally the right to create a new executive body is justified by the precedent of two other committees that already existed in Sevastopol in the last 5 years. Although they were concentrated on business issues, no one ever questioned this right. And now the new committee will have the full executive power.


    4.In the same manner, the new Executive Committee demands from the local police to subordinate itself to the new administration. Otherwise, it is implied that the local police and SBU heads will be dismissed and new ones appointed. Tomorrow will show whether people will have to occupy police precincts and SBU office or they will subordinate to the new Executive Committee.

    Police at the meeting did not show any signs of aggression even after separatists speeches. It seems that they are completely demoralized by the events. Some of the SBU agents were spotted in the crowed taking pictures.

    5. The Executive Committee does not support Verkhovnaya Rada of Ukraine and its resolutions . It does not recognise the new Ukrainian government either, characterizing the recent events as a fascist coup. Sevastopol refuses to obey to the resolutions from the new Rada and Turchinov (acting President).


    6. The Executive Committee creates the self defense squads for the countermeasures to the “Bandera” gangs. It is stressed separately that these squads will not just assist police, but will actively engage the would be invaders. The squads will be lead by the ex-officers of the army and spetsnaz. The squads will be organized by tens and hundreds and communicate with each other by mobile phones and via Internet.
     
  14. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

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    7. The Executive Committee in fact takes under its protection “Berkut” (special police) and National Guard squads which participated in the events in Kiev. It is implied that these squads must co-operate with local police and self defense squads. The Committee will not allow any attempts to bring “Berkut” and NG to court.
    8.It is openly stated that criminals caught in the acts of robbery or looting will be dealt with on the spot (i.e. martial law). This proposal was received with huge enthusiasm on the square.

    9. Despite the futile attempt of some RP functionaries to justify their past behavior, the majority of meeting participants loath Yanukovich and his regime to the same degree as Bandera followers. Some of the expletives used to describe them and voiced from the podium included: “traitor”, “scum”, “bastard” etc. This meeting does not have anything to do with Yanukovich and in fact, when Yatsuba tried to speak up about his legitimacy and unity of Ukraine, he was booed and whistled at. The crowd clearly showed that Party of Regions power here is as unpopular as the Bandera circuses.

    10. Sevastopol and its new government refuse to transfer the taxes gathered in the city to the central government and intend to use them themselves. In fact, despite the attempts of some political speakers to stay in the legal field using Yanukovich as a prop, the separatism was the tune of the day. And it was beautiful. I could hardly imagine that there ever would be such a huge gathering of people with the demand to separate from Ukraine.

    11. A number of petitions were read out - appeal to President Putin to send peace keepers, demand to remove Ukrainian flag from the Mayors Office, send self defense squads to assist the other towns in the Crimea (and even send them to re-take Kiev). The euphoria at the meeting was caused by the ease with which the people could dismantle the old regime and voice their opposition to fascism, and resulted in some proposals a bit removed from the realm from the reality. But the main message from the meeting was that Sevastopol will not bow to the new regime and will resist it with all possible efforts. With spineless Yanukovich and cowardly members of the RP for comparisons, a lot of what was said was very fresh, up-to-date and correct.

    12. Although the meeting was mostly anti-fascist and patriotic, some of the social issues were also touched upon. There was a proposal to requisition land from the local oligarchs and business people supporting Bandera followers and re-distribute them in favor of the members of the future self-defense squads. My motivation to join the meeting was purely anti-fascist, but I reckon, if a plot of land leased to a member of the squad could be a great additional motivator. In any case, the idea of re-nationalization of Sevastopol land I support fully and unconditionally.

    13. Sevastopol residents demanded from RP and Communist Party of Ukraine deputies in Verkhovnaya Rada to lay down their mandates and stop any activities within illegitimate regime, despite the fact that the latter are virtually hostages at the moment.
     
  15. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

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    14. The demand to close the shameful case on the “Heroes of the Grafskaya Quay” which was started in 2008. Yanukovich’s regime was extremely harsh towards local patriots while being extremely lenient towards fascists. No surprise that he is now hated in Sevastopol even more than in Kiev or Western Ukraine.

    15. The Ukraininan flag was taken off from the column at the Grafskaya Quay by the volunteers. A Russian flag was raised instead. People were expecting that the Ukrainian flag will be lowered from the Mayor’s Office, but nothing happened. Not this time. But soon, I hope.

    16. It is openly stated that the people of Sevastopol will not allow the destruction of the monuments to Lenin, Catherine the Great and Admiral Nakhimov. The rumor says that the activists have already started guarding the Lenin Memorial.

    17. There was a powerful and very moving speech by a 89 year old veteran and participant of the Great Patriotic War, who said that he never expected to see fascism in Ukraine again after defeating it once. The musical accompaniment was extremely well placed – the “Sacred War” march added to the feeling of mobilization. Now our main goal is to focus and keep momentum.
     
  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Just wanted to ask if you really believe the eu will/can help. It did not even help the countries which already were in the eu. Sadly i fear that the situation in the Ukraine will soon become far more chaotic, cause the people there will see that the eu is no more interested in their own well-being than Russia is.

    At least Russia has a minority there, and gas lines going through to feed the eu. I am sure the eu will have a lot to negotiate if Russia cuts off the supply of oil/gas towards the factories :)

    (but i don't care for that, i do care about the millions in the Ukraine, who i fear will suffer even more now, and this makes me angrier).
     
  17. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    ad Veles' quotations:

    Is the Russian psyché truly so deeply damaged, that it can't work without constant hearkening to the past 'glories'?

    It did, repeatedly. Since this sentence kind of sets the tone for the rest of the post, I don't think it is necessary to comment on it.
     
  18. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

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    Not in a mood for a good old flamewar, Winnie, sry ;)

    There's no such thing as "Russian psyché". People are individuals and act independently, in accordance with their individual reasons (and quirks). In this particular instance symbols and glories (''?) of the past are symbols that unite the confused and disoriented people and thus are crucially important.
     
  19. red_elk

    red_elk Warlord

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    Here is the speech of an UNA-UNSO member who came to the session of regional parliament with an assault rifle.
    He is saying that they took the power and asking if anybody wants to try to disarm him and other members of "right sector".


    Link to video.

    In Russia, Sergey Mironov, leader of parliament faction, suggesting to pass the law which greatly simplifies getting of Russian citizenship for Ukrainians.

    Edit:
    In case somebody doesn't know what is UNA-UNSO:
     
  20. Veles

    Veles ♈ ♉ ♊ ♋ ♌ ♍ ♎ ♏ ♐ ♑ ♒ ♓

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