Ukrainian Revolution master thread

[Winner]

Not in a mood for a good old flamewar, Winnie, sry

There's no such thing as "Russian psyché". People are individuals and act independently, in accordance with their individual reasons (and quirks). In this particular instance symbols and glories (''?) of the past are symbols that unite the confused and disoriented people and thus are crucially important.

Well, it wasn't an invitation for a flamewar and you basically understood it as I meant it. Why is it necessary to constantly bring up old glories (and old wounds)? Are the people so hung up on the past that using this rhetoric and symbolism remains a viable way of manipulating them?

To me, the Russian reactions to the events in Kiev border on absolute hysteria. To a foreigner like me, the blanket denouncements of the protesters/rioters/demonstrators as "fascists" (with all the WW2 connotations that word has, especially in Russian) are completely out of this world. The fact that people actually buy that is alarming.

 

[Winner]

BTW, I'd ask all debaters here to kindly STOP POSTING SO MANY YOUTUBE VIDEOS/IMAGES. Videos and pictures aren't arguments and they pollute this thread when used excessively.

Thank you.

 

[red_elk]

Why is it necessary to constantly bring up old glories (and old wounds)?

It's not. May be it wasn't such a bright idea to touch language-related laws and old monuments? Maidanist rhetorics ("Russia is source of all our troubles", "Occupational regime of Jews and Moscals") doesn't help either.

 

[Winner]

It's not. May be it wasn't such a bright idea to touch language-related laws and old monuments? Maidanist rhetorics ("Russia is source of all our troubles", "Occupational regime of Jews and Moscals") doesn't help either.

It's amazing how you are perfectly capable of filtering out 99% of what Maidan is about and getting hung up on the 1% that fits into your confirmation bias.

 

[Kyriakos]

It's amazing how you are perfectly capable of filtering out 99% of what Maidan is about and getting hung up on the 1% that fits into your confirmation bias.

That is a mirror on the wall, btw

 

[red_elk]

It's amazing how you are perfectly capable of filtering out 99% of what Maidan is about and getting hung up on the 1% that fits into your confirmation bias.

I merely had an opportunity to watch live video from there.
And happen to understand their language. Both of them.

 

[Winner]

I merely had an opportunity to watch live video from there.
And happen to understand their language. Both of them.

Yeah, I've seen plenty of Czech TV reports based on the monitoring of Russian mass media. The level of hysteria they instil in the Russian-speaking population is disgusting.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Internet is not part of the Free Media™, Winner. Its methods do not work here.

***

The monument to Field Marshal Mikhail Kutuzov being demolished in Lvov oblast.


Link to video.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kutuzov-monument-demoliotion-594/

Yeah, get this bloody commie commissar down! Heil, Ukraine! Heil, heroes!

 

[LamaGT]

It's amazing how you are perfectly capable of filtering out 99% of what Maidan is about and getting hung up on the 1% that fits into your confirmation bias.

It's amazing how you can filter out 100% of the anarchy that's happening just to keep believing what Saint Joseph is saying

 

[red_elk]

Yeah, I've seen plenty of Czech TV reports based on the monitoring of Russian mass media. The level of hysteria they instil in the Russian-speaking population is disgusting.

May be, I don't watch Russian state TV channels.
I watched Espreso TV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espreso_TV
They broadcasted everything, without much censorship. Very informative, if you understand Ukrainian.

 

[Kyriakos]

So is Ukraine moving towards an actual partition?

It does echo a bit the other historical risk of total collapse of the ottoman empire, and then a partition happening in some slavic country (in 1772, and more crucially in 1793, after the Russian-Austrian alliance altered) instead.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Ukrainian-like situation impossible in Belarus

Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko has said a Ukraine-like scenario would not take place in his country.

"Our military will carry out duty and tasks to maintain peace and stability in the country," Xinhua quoted Lukashenko as saying Sunday during a meeting with top military and law-enforcement officials.

"We should not lose vigilance here. We should learn from other people's mistakes and prevent even the slightest manifestations of instability in our country," he added.

The president warned that any attempt to attack Belarusian law enforcement officers will be "responded to instantly", saying the country's territorial integrity should remain intact.

Good to know...

 

[Winner]

So is Ukraine moving towards an actual partition?

No. It's not even in Russian interest to actually break up Ukraine.

It does echo a bit the other historical risk of total collapse of the ottoman empire, and then a partition happening in some slavic country (in 1772, and more crucially in 1793, after the Russian-Austrian alliance altered) instead.

No, it doesn't.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Ukrainian-like situation impossible in Belarus

Good to know...

Belarus is stable and contrary to common perception, actually booming since the end of the Cold War till today.

A Ukraine-like revolution seems for the time being, really unlikely in Belarus.

So is Ukraine moving towards an actual partition?

It won't it looks like so far, but the real question is if actual partition or division is preferred?

I'm of the opinion that what will follow Maidan 2014 is another interim period of relative peace for a decade or so until some new events spark up a new revolution. The problem is systemic in Ukraine, two large parts of the country have very different and ingrained visions for the country that involves two different and contradictory geopolitical spheres.

 

[Winner]

Meh, I think the differences are overblow. I suspect that if I asked "who wants to have less corruption, more jobs, higher salaries, better state services and in general a better living standard", the differences in responses between West and East Ukrainians and/or Ukrainian and Russian speakers would be minimal.

If we filtered out all the parasitic rhetoric, Ukrainians would have pretty much the same wishes and desires concerning the future of their country.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Meh, I think the differences are overblow. I suspect that if I asked "who wants to have less corruption, more jobs, higher salaries, better state services and in general a better living standard", the differences in responses between West and East Ukrainians and/or Ukrainian and Russian speakers would be minimal.

Yeah, the trouble after the Orange Revolution was that this revolution didn't end the kleptocracy and corruption.
But people seem to have learned and right now the change seems more fundamental this time than back then.

Belarus is stable and contrary to common perception, actually booming since the end of the Cold War till today.

Since the end of the Cold War seems not very faithful to the truth.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus#Economy

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Russian-Belarusian border:



The upper is Belarus, the lower is Russia. Socialist state vs. the capitalist one.

The commenter jokes: "But our grass is greener!"

 

[red_elk]

MOSCOW (AP) — President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday ordered massive exercises involving most military units in western Russia amid tensions in Ukraine.

Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said in a televised statement made at a meeting of top military brass in Moscow that the exercise is intended to "check the troops' readiness for action in crisis situations that threaten the nation's military security."

In later remarks carried by Russian news agencies, Shoigu said that the maneuvers involve some 150,000 troops, 880 tanks, 90 aircraft and 80 navy ships.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2014-02-26/kremlin-orders-test-of-combat-readiness-in-west

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'd think that size of infrastructure and corruption account far better for the street than the socialism-capitalism dichotomy.
Belarus may have its own corruption, but it probably doesn't beat Russia.

 

[warpus]

In later remarks carried by Russian news agencies, Shoigu said that the maneuvers involve some 150,000 troops, 880 tanks, 90 aircraft and 80 navy ships.

As well as 7 homosexual diffusion squads.