Ukrainian Revolution master thread

[Veles]

But I say that "grateful" Russians backstabbed us in 1939 in exchange for that.

We (Russians and Poles) will always have a different view on this issue. To you those were Rzechpospolita lands, to us it was our ancestral Rus' lands and the lands of Russian Empire, and there will never be a concensus on that, no point in arguing.

You could however at least be grateful for the lands you've been granted. Almost everything that was lost by West Slavs during the last thousand of years was given back. Even East Germany was initially proposed to be give to Czechs. Lusatia at least. Almost a millenium of kraut Ostsiedlung all in vain Thank you, Russia? No no, Russia bad. Germoney best buddy -.-

 

[CavLancer]

First time for the last several years I can't say I understand and fully support what Russia is doing in its foreign politics.

Quick, watch this twice and call me in the morning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNb54rwDQJM

 

[Domen]

Spoiler :

This map is true, but one more thing needs to be added.

In most of these cases Russia was giving to Ukraine not their own, Russian land, but land previously stolen by Russia from others.

Almost everything that was lost by West Slavs during the last thousand of years was given back.

The former German Democratic Republic was also once inhabited by Slavic people. Or at least as far west as the Elbe River.

to us it was our ancestral Rus' lands and the lands of Russian Empire,

In case of Volhynia - granted. But Lwów was never part of the Russian Empire and it was also not ancestral Rus' lands.

Check Nestor's Primary Chronicle - he writes that this land belong to West Slavs, Poles (Lyachs) originally. Nestor wrote:

"In the summer of 6489 [981] Vladimir marched up the Lyachs and took their towns: Peremyl, Cherven and others (...)"

Here is the political history of the area where the city of Lwów is located:

Until 970 - West Slavic tribe of Lendians
From 970 to 981 - Poland
From 981 to 1018 - Kievan Rus
From 1018 to 1031 - Poland
From 1031 to 1054 - Kievan Rus
From 1054 to 1069 - principalities of Rus
From 1069 to 1086 - Poland
From 1086 to 1239 - principalities of Rus
From 1240 to 1340 - Golden Horde
From 1340 to 1772 - Poland
From 1772 to 1918 - Austrian Empire
From 1918 to 1939 - Poland

The original Curzon Line (not its version falsified by Lord Namier) also had Lwów on the Polish side of the border:

 

[Veles]

In most of these cases Russia was giving to Ukraine not their own, Russian land, but land previously stolen by Russia from others.

This is another thing where we'll never agree. Ukraine is Russia. As is Belarus. It's all a subset of Russians. Same people that used to live under different polities and developed slight differences in culture. There should be one East Slavic state.

So no, Russia didn't "steal" anything from anyone, it took what was rightfully hers from the previous conquerors.

(Well, except it did take Polish proper lands after the partition. And by Polish lands I mean the Visla basin lands. Everything east of that was a landgrab on Polish side at the times Rus was weak

Sorry for my "French"

Excellent, thanks

 

[VJS]

In most of these cases Russia was giving to Ukraine not their own, Russian land, but land previously stolen by Russia from others.

Yes, and Russian stolen by "Others". But that were gift for Ukraine, which Ukraine has adopted!

 

[red_elk]

Quick, watch this twice and call me in the morning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNb54rwDQJM

Thank you, I'm feeling better already.
This
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeoIHxSaEaU#t=61
worked just fine.

 

[Yeekim]

Great, all we need now is r16 (or someone else) arguing that Crimea should be returned to the Ottoman Empire and Turks sending their own contingent to make sure nobody mistreats the Tatar minority there.

 

[Domen]

As I wrote above, the area in the vicinity of Lwów was not originally Russian.

It is eastern part of ancestral land of the tribe of Lendians - who were West Slavic people and one of tribes known collectively as Polish tribes (because they became the Polish ethnos after unification). Already before 981 area of Lwów (the city did not exist at that time) was part of Poland.

Regarding Curzon Line - contrary to myths, it wasn't drawn according to ethnic boundaries, but according to border of 3rd Russian Partition. It was drawn according to ethnic boundaries only in Austrian Eastern Galicia. The rest of it was along the border of 3rd Russian Parition of Poland (see above).

Had the Curzon Line been drawn according to ethnic boundaries, it should have included Grodno, Lida and some other northern areas also within Poland.

 

[Veles]

@Domen

Lvov was established by a Russian Rurikid prince Daniil Romanovich in the land of Lendians, that were a part of Galician Principality. Russia does have a legit claim on that, but, honestly - take it, by all means

There's one very definite natural border between Poland and Rus', it's Visla/Dnepr-Dnestr watershed. Again:



The thing is Lvov is situated exactly on the border of watershed basins So it's up for you and Ukies to decide

 

[Domen]

Lendians were Poles. Nestor is clear about this. Lendians were incorporated to the Polish state by prince Mieszko I around year 970.

Later in 981 territory of Lendians was stolen from Poland by Kievan Rus' (Nestor writes about this).

As for the talk on who established what:

Berlin was established by a Polish prince of Slavic Stodorans - Jaksa of Miechów. Even German wikipedia confirms this.

So what?

As for the Principality of Galicia-Volhynia - it was also ruled by Polish Piast dynasty (Bolesław Jerzy II Trojdenowic of Mazovia):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_Jerzy_II_of_Mazovia

Bolesław Jerzy II of Mazovia (Polish Bolesław Jerzy II Mazowiecki, also known as "of Galicia", Boleslaw-Yuri II, and Jerzy-Bolesław Trojdenowicz, 1305/1310 – April 7, 1340) was a ruler of the Polish Piast dynasty who reigned in the originally Ruthenian principality of Galicia. After his death started the Galicia–Volhynia Wars over succession of Galicia and Volhynia.

So Polish King Casimir III the Great - another member of the Piast Dynasty - had the right to Galicia after his relative died.

BTW - let's end this Off-Topic (or move with this to some other thread) before moderators become angry.

 

[Veles]

Just told ya that Poles can have their precious Lvov, anyway

The former German Democratic Republic was also once inhabited by Slavic people. Or at least as far west as the Elbe River.

Further than that. Nordalbingia, some places in Thuringa and half of Austria too

Berlin was established by a Polish prince of Slavic Stodorans - Jaksa of Miechów. Even German wikipedia confirms this.

So what?

So... you know what to do

Seriously though, Berlin is a really weird place for a German capital. One would think some Rhine or Weser city would be more appropriate.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Democracy Now, Feb 20, 2014

AMYGOODMAN:That’s President Obama in Mexico, Professor Cohen.

STEPHENCOHEN:What are you asking me to comment on?

AMYGOODMAN:Your response to his response.

STEPHENCOHEN:To what he just said? Shame. Shame. He is saying that the responsibility for restoring peace is on the Ukrainian government, and it should withdraw its security forces from the streets. But let me ask you, if in Washington people throwing Molotov cocktails are marching on Congress—and these people are headed for the Ukrainian Congress—if these people have barricaded entrance to the White House and are throwing rocks at the White House security guard, would President Obama withdraw his security forces? This is—this is—and do you know what this does? And let’s escape partisanship here. I mean, lives are at stake. This incites, these kinds of statement that Obama made. It rationalizes what the killers in the streets are doing. It gives them Western license, because he’s not saying to the people in the streets, "Stop this, stop shooting policemen, stop attacking government buildings, sit down and talk." And the guy you had on just before, a so-called moderate leader, what did he just tell you? "We have lost control of the situation." That’s what I just told you. He just confirmed that.

... JUANGONZÁLEZ:Let’s listen to little bit more of the leaked conversation between the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and Victoria Nuland, the top U.S. diplomat for Europe.





JUANGONZÁLEZ:That was Victoria Nuland, the top U.S. diplomat for Europe, speaking with Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. ambassador to the Ukraine. Stephen Cohen, this—this chess game—

STEPHENCOHEN:You don’t need me here. What do you need me for?

JUANGONZÁLEZ:—this chess game that they’re conducting here?

STEPHENCOHEN:There it is. There it is.

AMYGOODMAN:But explain the names. Who is Klitsch, Yats?

STEPHENCOHEN:All right. And notice the intimacy with which the Americans deal with the two leading so-called "moderate"—and these are big shots, they both want to be president—Ukrainian opposition. Klitschko is Vitali Klitschko, a six-foot-eight former—he resigned his title two months ago to enter politics—heavyweight champion of the world. His residence has been Ukraine—I mean, Germany. He plays—he pays taxes in Germany. He’s a project of Merkel. He represents German interests. I’m sure he’s also faithful to Ukraine, but he’s got a problem. Yatsenyuk, however—not Yatsenyuk, but the other guy she calls "Yats" is a representative of the Fatherland Party. It’s a big party in Parliament. But Washington likes him a lot. They think he’ll be our man. So you could see what they’re saying. We don’t quite trust Klitschko. Now, if you want to get esoteric, that’s the tug between Washington and Berlin. They’re not happy with Merkel, the chancellor of Germany. They don’t like the role Merkel is playing, generally. They think Germany has gotten too big for its britches. They want to cut Merkel down. So you noticed Klitschko, the boxer, is Merkel’s proxy, or at least she’s backing him. You notice that they say, "He’s not ready for prime time. Let him do his homework."

Now, this guy—I’m bad on Ukrainian names. Tyagnybok, that they say has got to play a role, he’s the leader of the Freedom Party, the Svoboda Party, but a large element of that party, to put it candidly, is quasi-fascist. And they’re prepared to embrace this guy. This is the guy, by the way, that Senator John McCain in November or December went to Kiev and embraced. Either McCain didn’t know who he was, or he didn’t care. The United States is prepared to embrace that guy, too—anything to get rid of Yanukovych, because they think this is about Putin. That’s all they really got on their mind.

I hate to say it... but Stephen Cohen was right...

 

[luiz]

This is another thing where we'll never agree. Ukraine is Russia. As is Belarus. It's all a subset of Russians. Same people that used to live under different polities and developed slight differences in culture. There should be one East Slavic state.

This is the same sort of argument as "Austria and much of Switzerland should be part of Germany" or "there should only be one Scandinavian state".

If the people there feel like uniting - sure. But if not, why should they be forced into this super-state? The fact that it's only "one people" (whatever the hell that means) seems pretty irrelevant to me. It's a 19th Century idea based on faulty interpretation of history and ethnicity.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So then you have no issue with the eastern part of Ukraine where the majority of people do feel that way forming their own republic, or even joining Russia?

 

[luiz]

So then you have no issue with the eastern part of Ukraine where the majority of people do feel that way forming their own republic, or even joining Russia?

Nope, no problem whatsoever with that, provided it's done through democratic means. I even posted as much in this very thread.

I'm just saying that the link between past empires, ethnicities and nationhood does not seem very compelling to me.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Glad to see you completely agree with statements I have made in most, if not all, of these Ukraine threads. I certainly didn't get that impression.

But I doubt their constitution has a "democratic means" for various regions to secede, much like it probably doesn't have one for their legislature to remove a democratically elected president without an impeachment and conviction. Do you feel the same way about that as well?

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm just saying that the link between past empires, ethnicities and nationhood does not seem very compelling to me.

How very New World of you. This is the Old World we're talking about.

 

[red_elk]

But I doubt their constitution has a "democratic means" for various regions to secede, much like it probably doesn't have one for their legislature to remove a democratically elected president without an impeachment and conviction.

Hopefully now Ukrainian people will have an opportunity to decide their fate and exercise their right for self-determination, through democratic procedure. Russian intervention can pave the way to it, after Kievan coup d'etat and power vacuum.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

This is kinda interesting:

Anti-Maidan protesters storm regional govt building in Donetsk
March 3, 2014
[ Nearly a hundred pro-Russian protesters in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk have seized two floors of the regional government building, after the self-imposed Kiev government appointed a local oligarch as a Donetsk Region governor.

In the building there are currently over 20 journalists and deputies of the local parliament, according to ITAR-TASS.

Earlier on Monday morning thousands of anti-Maidan activists came to the building of local administration. They were chanting"Taruta - out!"and carrying Russian flags and banners reading“Russians are our brothers.”
On Sunday the self-proclaimed government in Kiev dismissed Donetsk Governor Andrey Shishatsky and appointed one of Ukraine’s richest men, Sergey Taruta, in his place. Taruta heads ISD, one of the biggest mining and smelting companies in the world, and also owns the Donetsk-based Metallurg Football Club.

The appointment in Donetsk is among 18 made on Sunday by the self-appointed regime Kiev, which is struggling to consolidate power after the coup that ousted President Yanukovich 10 days ago.

Thedefiant regions seek greater autonomy from the central authorities. Having the right to elect their own governors as opposed to have them appointed in Kiev, is one of the demands regularly voiced at the protest rallies in eastern and southern Ukraine.

However, on Monday, the deputies of the regional parliament have secretly voted to appoint Shishatsky a parliament’s head which also outraged the protesters.

On Saturday, the Donetsk City Council refused
to recognize Ukraine’s self-imposed government and called for a referendum on the region’s status. In addition, the members of the city council have voted to set up self-defense squads.

 

[luiz]

Glad to see you completely agree with statements I have made in most, if not all, of these Ukraine threads. I certainly didn't get that impression.

But I doubt their constitution has a "democratic means" for various regions to secede, much like it probably doesn't have one for their legislature to remove a democratically elected president without an impeachment and conviction. Do you feel the same way about that as well?

The Constitution doesn't have to specify the right procedure for autonomy / secession; they can reach an agreement on a referendum, like the UK is doing with Scotland (the UK doesn't even have a Constitution).

As for the impeachment... I'm no expert on Ukrainian law. Why are you so sure it wasn't done through the constitutional means?

Anyway, lets not fool ourselves. Yanukovych was a crook.

How very New World of you. This is the Old World we're talking about.

In the New World or the Old, ultimately there's no way to settle ethnicity/nationhood other than self-identification. Of Ukrainians feel like they are a separate nation from Russia, who is anyone to tell them they aren't? The fact that in the past they both belonged to Kievan Rus' is as irrelevant as fact that Brazil and Macau were once part of the same kingdom. Or Brazil and Uruguay for that matter. That the languages are similar, or even indistinguishably, is also quite irrelevant (the Scandinavian nations, Flanders & Holland; Wallonia & France; Germany & Austria; etc etc).