Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Guandao, Feb 5, 2018.
Saffron is more valuable than gold by weight.
It's also delicious. *goes and brews saffron tea*
Only if we could add pandas as well, but not necessarily as a resource but for graphical purposes.
If we are going for a luxury nut it should be Macadamias. How about Sugar Sap Maples?
Pistachios are almost as expensive and have a richer cultural tradition, though. They're also the only nut that tastes good. Sugar maples are another good suggestion.
Sugar maples would very likely be released with the Iroquois.
Have you considered the coconut?
Lemme throw some different ideas into this discussion:
1. Let's do away with the artificial distinction among Bonus, Strategic, and Luxury/Amenity Resources. Instead, the 'bonuses' derived from or the 'uses' of the resources should vary depending on your Technology and other considerations (What price Furs if your first city is on the edge of the Tundra with the attendant Climate?).
2. This allows a lot more variety in the Tile additions for the Bonuses. Most Resources should provide more than one type of Bonus. For example, right now Cattle provide + 1 Food. This ignores the fact that Cattle were also a prime source of Leather for shields, armor, clothing (footgear, overcoats) and later, Industrial Belting in the early factories. At Least, Cattle should provide + 1 Production from the start, as well as the + 1 Food.
3. The additional bonuses for Resources will change as the game progresses. For an obvious example, Horses provided Food and also Leather, and were required for some military units, but from the Atomic Era on, lost almost all military use, but from the Industrial Era, became increasingly important as an Amenity Item: horse racing, recreational horse-riding, etc.
4. Lots of ideas for Additions in this Thread, but let me suggest a few Deletions/Replacements to the Resource List:
Niter - top of my list of "Don't Needs" - Niter can be manufactured from compost or manure in Nitraries, and after the invention of the Haber Process (early Modern Era) can be manufactured in massive quantities for any purpose. IF the game needs a 'gunpowder limiting' Resource, let it be the fact that gunpowder weapons required, for the first time, a constant supply of Powder and Shot, neither of which could be manufactured or 'acquired' easily by the troops themselves: so the Maintenance Costs of gunpowder units will go up dramatically. If we really want to stick it to the Gunpowder Units, require a Nitrary building in at least one Industrial Zone, an alternative to the Workshop which adds no general Production Points OR Great Engineer points - effectively, you 'throw away' a lot of your early benefit from one Industrial Zone to build and maintain your Gunpowder Units.
Crab - Why be so specific? Shellfish covers Crab, Lobster, and all the other delicacies from Coastal Waters.
Wheat - leaves out Millet, Barley, Oats, and all the other Grains except Rice? By just calling it Cereal it covers all the other varieties which could be cultivated in much harsher climates, latitudes and altitudes than Wheat - also, all of them can be used to make distilled Spirits, which should definitely be in the game as a Manufactured Resource from the Renaissance Era on!
5. Let's go back to Civ 2 and distinguish between Hardwood and Softwood (evergreen) Forests. This has a bunch of advantages from the Resource standpoint:
Hardwood Old Growth (never Harvested) Forest would be your source/placement tile for the 'Bonus' woods: Teak, Mahogany, Sugar Maple.
Softwood Forest would be the source for Pitch/Turpentine/Resin ("Naval Stores")
Old Growth of both types would be a source for Timber - meaning specifically, the tall, straight Cedar, Pine, Oak, etc with which to build Sea-Going Ships from the Renaissance Era on.
As for Resources that have already been listed, a few comments:
Gold - I cannot believe that Civ VI left out this Resource - the ultimate back-to-Neolithic-practicaly Luxury Resource, one of the two (with Silver) basic Coinage metals, and also used extensively for high-conductivity contacts in modern Solid-State Electronics (another obvious Manufactured Resource: Personal Electronics for the Information Era)
Potato - another Must Have: to quote Mann: "Any history of Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries that doesn't mention the potato is not worth reading". This is a Resource that should be available only in one place on the map, but once a City State or Civ is cultivating it, the 'idea' of the Potato can be Traded and would, for example, increase the Food output of Farms on Plains or Hills to match the output on Grasslands.
Obsidian - "Volcanic Glass", a substitute for early metals for cutting tools, stone and gem-working, personal hygiene (Obsidian edges are as sharp as modern razor blades). A great Production and Amenity Resource.
Maize - not 'corn', which means something different in many European languages. IF we include it as a separate type of 'cereal', what differentiates it from the others? One possibility is that Corn Oil largely replaces Sugar and Honey as sweeteners in 'commercial' foods in the Atomic Era and later.
Salmon - Since Civ VI does not actually use Rivers as a Tile-Type, Salmon Runs won't really show on the map. I suggest instead that Salmon be a 'marker' at the river mouth, indicating that tiles on Both Sides of the river for X tiles inland have a +1 (or more) Food Bonus - the Northwest Natives were harvesting tons of salmon a couple of hundred miles inland on the Columbia River.
One advantage of expanding the Resource list for the game is that it allows, potentially, much more variety on the map: rivers with/without Salmon, Coastal Tiles with/without Shellfish/Pearls/Fish, Forests of two distinct types with different 'sets' of Resources in them - Expanding Potentials and Possibilities is almost always a good thing.
Ships in unclaimed ocean tiles should lose 10 HP per turn to represent scurvy.
The use of Citrus should be expanded to allow the civ's naval units not to lose 10 HP per turn from scurvy.
This would be true IF Citrus was the only anti-scorbutic available, but it isn't - it's simply the best known. Vinegar added to drinking water in small amounts (as, among others, the French Navy did in the late 18th century) and the Roman Army did, both acts as an anti-bacterial agent and also prevents Scurvy. Also, although citrus fruit was available for centuries, its use against scurvy was not discovered until just before the Napoleonic Wars - the beginning of the Industrial Era, approximately, in game terms. We'd have to tie the use of Citrus against scurvy to some kind of Tech/Civic development, which seems an unnecessary complication...
Corn syrup only replaced natural sugar in the US due to subsidies and tariffs specifically the sugar tariff put in place to protect the sugar plantations in Louisiana, Texas, and Hawaii.
Good point, thank you.
Brings back the original question, which has to be asked whenever we split up a 'category' of Resources like Gemstones (Diamond, Jade currently), Spices (Spices, Cinnamon, Cloves, with Saffron and others proposed) and Cereal Grains (Wheat and Rice currently, Maize proposed) - what distinguishes them? Sheer variety is good for the Amenity bonuses, but what is the proper balance or number of Amenities from 'natural' Resources for a good game?
It's a question that has been bothering me about all the Resource categories and uses, because it keeps coming up on these Forums time after time: multiple resources for units, like requiring both Iron and Horses for Knights, or Oil and Iron for Tanks; Manufactured Amenity Resources, like the current Toys, Jeans, Perfumes, which potentially could include a Host of historical products, going all the way back to Porcelain (Chinese Monopoly, then ubiquitous European-Government-sponsored product), Finely Decorated Pottery (fragments of Greek red and black-figure ware have been found all over Europe), Cheap Cloth (textiles fueled the initial Industrial Revolution in England) right up to the 20th/21st century's prime manufactured trade goods: automobiles and Personal Electronics.
It's a major Bag o' Worms. I think the game would ultimately be better for modeling the 'transition' from natural Amenity/Resource products in Trade to Manufactured Products, but it requires a multi-faceted Balancing Act to get it right: on the one extreme, we could have 'Strategic Resources' including everything from Manganese and Chromium required for Armor Plate to Bison Leather required for Industrial Era belts to transmit power from steam engines to power tools, but somewhere we've got to make some conscious decisions on Where To Stop or the game devolves into Industrial/Economic Trivial Pursuit.
- Which I, for one, DO NOT want to play!
Maybe we could abstract the luxuries but give different graphical representation to them.
For example sugar could be: cane sugar on tropical marsh tiles, sugar beets on temperate plains tiles, or sugar maples on tundra forests.
Fruits could be tropical bananas, temperate apples or pairs, or tundra berries.
Starches could be wheat, rice, barley, oats, or potatoes.
Precious metals would be gold, silver, copper and tin, and platinum.
Tyrian Purple seems redundant when we already have a Dyes luxury.
Ok, seems like a lot of people posted suggestions while I was away (suffering from jet lag from my overseas trip and also doing spring cleaning). I'll try my best to incorporate these suggestions in the lists.
Good Ideas, especially for the Sugar and Fruit Sources, but we have to be able to differentiate when the Uses of the Resource were different or the results of having access to the Resource were different.
potatoes and rice, before modern botany/agronomy, both provided tremendous increases in the food supply from a given plot of land: the latter had a lot to do with the great population increase in China from Classical Era on, and the former, it has been argued, fueled the great population increases in Europe in the 17th - 18th centuries, and to some extent, provided all the 'excess' labor for the industrialization process that started in the late 18th century.
Gold and Silver from ancient times were the primary Coinage/Transaction metals. Copper ingots were used early and for 'small change', but the economies of Classical Rome, Renaissance Europe and Medieval/Renaissance China ran on Silver and the Ancient and Industrial Era World ecnomies ran on Gold. Those two also have Industrial uses as high-end electrical conductors in the Information Era.
Copper and Tin were, of course, the components for Bronze, but copper is also a requirement for efficient electrical wiring from the late Industrial Era on, for things like telephone and telegraph communications, internal communications on ships, aircraft and tanks, electrical lighting in cities and homes, and even hull cladding on wooden ships to deter worms and barnacles.
Wherever the Use of the Resource is different And important in game terms, I think we'll have to differentiate among them, but I really like your basic idea of simply 'tweaking' the graphics to indicate variations within the Resource by climate or Terrain without having to increase the list of separate Resources.
A good example of exactly what I was talking about. Tyrian Purple was no more difficult or expensive in manpower and time to get than Kermes Red or Saffron Yellow, so it does not have to be distinguished with a separate listing on the Resource List. Instead, Dyes are available from Coastal Tiles, and in that case it's actually 'Tyrian' Purple..;
I could see a really colorful graphic for Dyes in which the primary color of the graphic was different depending on the Terrain of the Tile it was found on: Indigo Blue, Tyrian Purple, Kermes Red, Saffron Yellow, etc.
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