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Ultra-processed foods

With regards ultra-processed foods:

  • I do not eat them because I do not like them or they are too expensive or whatever

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • I do not eat them because they have bad stuff in them

    Votes: 3 18.8%
  • I do not eat them because they do not have good stuff stuff in them

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I eat them and do not think it is a problem

    Votes: 1 6.3%
  • I eat them but worry they may be a problem

    Votes: 9 56.3%
  • Only radioactive monkeys should eat them

    Votes: 2 12.5%

  • Total voters
    16

Samson

Deity
Joined
Oct 24, 2003
Messages
20,595
Location
Cambridge
The latest thing in food health is ultra-processed foods. The Lancet has a special on it, the editorial is free but the others are email-walled. The first is available here at time of writing, and I am reading it.

This is the intro, and I agree with it:

This rise in ultra-processed foods is driven by powerful global corporations who employ sophisticated political tactics to protect and maximise profits. Education and relying on behaviour change by individuals is insufficient. Deteriorating diets are an urgent public health threat that requires coordinated policies and advocacy to regulate and reduce ultra-processed foods and improve access to fresh and minimally processed foods. The Series provides a different vision for the food system with emphasis on local food producers, preserving cultural foods transitions and economic benefits for communities.

Where I have never been quite convinced is that the primary problem with modern megacorp food is what it has got in it, rather than what it has not. The thesis, as I understand it is that these foods have many different harmful chemicals, many underinvestigated and perhaps more undiscovered. The evidence provided is that the more of this food you eat the less healthy you are.

There is good mechanistic reasons why some of this stuff is bad for you, in particular the emulsifiers seem a bad idea to me, there is a not a hard line between an emulsifier and a detergent and detergents are bad for everything with cell membranes. I am sure there are plenty of other things that are bad for you in them.

However the previous conventional thought would be that a diet dominated by megacorp food and lacking in fresh fruits and vegetables would be bad because of what it is missing, rather than what it has.

The gold standard test to distinguish causality from correlation is a randomised controlled trial (RCT). The criticism that the hypothesis has not been subjected to RCTs is addressed in the first paper:

Few randomised controlled trials (RCTs)

Criticism: Most existing evidence on the adverse health effects of UPFs is observational and cannot definitively establish causality. More research is needed, especially from RCTs.

Response: Short-term RCTs (eg, those by the US NIH 56 and Tokyo Hospital 58) have shown consistent and biologically plausible effects of ultra-processed diets on precursors of obesity, including excessive total energy intake and increases in bodyweight and fat mass. These experiments support the plausibility of associations with the incidence of obesity observed in long-term prospective cohorts.

I looked at those two papers, in particular they both have a photo of all the meals in the supplementary info (US pdf here, Japanese PPT here, neither are small). I include the snacks of each in the spoiler below, and while this is not completely representative of the diets it gives a pretty good idea. If this is the best they can come up with, this does not seems to me to be evidence agaisnt the "fresh food is good for you" thesis. Also I would much rather be on the Japanese trial than the US one, the US UPF pictures just look brutal to me.

I think they should do a real double blind trial. Give some groups of poor people a breadmaker and a premixed bread mix, and tell them to use that as much as possible and avoid UPFs. Give one group bread mix with UPFs and another one without.

What do you think?

Spoiler Snacks :
I think you can guess which is which..
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I eat both but maintain in imbalance with fresh foods in the majority. One can see the effects of UPF by looking at USians in airports and on the street. They are the obese ones. That is a pretty good blind test in itself. You can see the changes in USians weight over time as UPF took over their diets during the past several decades. We didn't used to be a nation of fat people.
 
Forgive me for only reading the summary but isn't this basically pushing for the Nova classification system?

I don't know too much about it but the general idea is that more chemicals or just more processes = more harmful, despite whatever essential vitamins you may be getting in the meantime. Sure sodas and ice cream everyday are never good. But that'd mean even stuff like low-sugar cereals and yogurts, even whole-grain breads, are "bad" because they go through a mechanized packing process operated by--you guessed it--those "powerful global corporations."

I'd be happy to see less plastic, though; I just don't know how'd you'd do it unless everyone just reuses food containers when going to the store. Germany has the "pfand" system at some locations where you get part of your money back if you return the containers.
 
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There is pretty good evidence that one's bowels prefer fresher, more fibrous, less processed foods.
 
low-sugar cereals and yogurts, even whole-grain breads, are "bad" because they go through a mechanized packing process
This is the point that makes it hard. Basically all supermarket bread has emulsifiers in them, which are hypothesised to basically dissolve your insides.

I live off my bread machine, which makes bread nicer than you can buy in the supermarket while being healthier even if you discount UPFs as you can make it higher fibre. I can thoroughly recommend it.
 
There is good mechanistic reasons why some of this stuff is bad for you, in particular the emulsifiers seem a bad idea to me, there is a not a hard line between an emulsifier and a detergent and detergents are bad for everything with cell membranes. I am sure there are plenty of other things that are bad for you in them.
The huge use of emulsifiers is something that I too think will be looked back on as a crazy idea in a few decades time.

Even if you have what is considered a "healthy" diet without processed food, the nutritional value of what you eat is far worse than a few decades ago...
Instead of "5-a-day" you should really be having at least ten portions of fruit and veg to get anywhere near the same nutrients as your parents had:
- strawberries only have a sixth of the vitamin C than 20 years ago
- beans have a quarter the amount of vitamin B6
- broccoli and potatoes have half the amount of magnesium
 
This is the point that makes it hard. Basically all supermarket bread has emulsifiers in them, which are hypothesised to basically dissolve your insides.
I think the views espoused by the summary are only going to lead confusion between foods that can be both rich in nutrients (good) yet also subject to refining processes designed for longer shelf life (bad).

Like, under these interpretations, a fairly general question such as: how good is hummus for you? Would be answered with : It depends...
Because even commercially produced varieties of that sort would, under the circumstances, not really be considered that much different than potato chips and the like. One could also include soy products like milks of the sort, tofu, or meat substitutes. They also using emulsifiers.

To which I think it's seems pretty clear just from the writing style the author(s) has a bit of an axe to grind with the food industry, versus having most everything fresh/local/homemade be better for you.
 
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Ultra-processed food is cheap, tasty, and has a long shelf life.

Sure, one feels unwell a few hours later, but there are pills for that. Maybe Tums.

Also, over 10% of USA#1 has gotten the GLP-1 injection to murder hunger.
That should cut down on weight problems.


Local fruit and veggies? Expensive.
Organic (not sprayed with any chemicals)? More expensive.
Non-genetically modified? More expensive!

Plus, it feels like they are constantly recalling the fresh fruits and veggies and salads with deadly bacteria outbreaks.

Risky.


I demand a standard human food cube that is perfectly healthy.
Doctors should have figured out that part of the human maintenance manual by now!

The only thing they all agree on is that lots of vegetables is safe to eat. :yumyum:
Everything else is unhealthy.
Pregnant women can't eat Sushi, uh-huh

And at the end of the day, despite all of that, pure vegetarians are unhealthy for some reason. Perhaps B-12 :hmm:
 
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Let's just say that I would rather eat cheese straight out of the cow's teet. Why put a chain of factories in between myself and the ingredients I am consuming? From farm to mouth would be ideal, as from my experience small farm stuff just tastes so much better, so much fuller and authentic. I would bet it's also usually more healthy. It sure feels healthier!

That's not often attainable though, let's be honest - but ideally the processing will be minimal. The more people and machines involved in the cheese creation process, the less I want to do with it. Ideally it's just cows involved, but I'm being told that isn't really possible, so yeah fine let's get a couple Italian grandmothers in there to do their thing if need be.

"Ultra processed" just sounds like some factory created slop you'd feed to cockroaches or astronauts, not people.
 
Why put a chain of factories in between myself and the ingredients I am consuming? From farm to mouth would be ideal, as from my experience small farm stuff just tastes so much better, so much fuller and authentic. I would bet it's also usually more healthy. It sure feels healthier!

Don't let Plains-Cow see this. :hide:


Delicious
 
This is the point that makes it hard. Basically all supermarket bread has emulsifiers in them, which are hypothesised to basically dissolve your insides.

I live off my bread machine, which makes bread nicer than you can buy in the supermarket while being healthier even if you discount UPFs as you can make it higher fibre. I can thoroughly recommend it.
I eat this one almost every day
Been feeling good about it too
In Europe the label is Rustik Bakery instead of Oven but looking at the package I think it's the same bread.
 
I eat this one almost every day
Been feeling good about it too
In Europe the label is Rustik Bakery instead of Oven but looking at the package I think it's the same bread.
That is a fairly similar ingredient list to my bread, but I have loads more of the fibrous stuff, I think mine is over 30% fibre.
 
That is a fairly similar ingredient list to my bread, but I have loads more of the fibrous stuff, I think mine is over 30% fibre.
I must not have more fiber than my daily intake as I am already very active in the throne...too active:)
 
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