UN Global Commission: Drug War a Failure

Legal drugs hurt/kill hundreds of thousands of Americans each year. Illegal drugs, which are usually much more potent and dangerous than legal drugs, do not. Therefore: the Drug War prevents really dangerous drugs from hurting/killing people--at the hundreds-of-thousands-of-people-each-year level.

A = Legal drugs hurt/kill hundreds of thousands of Americans each year.
B = Illegal drugs, which are usually much more potent and dangerous than legal drugs, do not.
C = the Drug War prevents really dangerous drugs from hurting/killing people--at the hundreds-of-thousands-of-people-each-year level.


And you're saying A & B -> C

My logic is a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.
 
I like how we look back at 20s prohibition with the hindsight to realize how stupid and harmful it was, but for some reason can't apply that logic to today's prohibition.
 
I agree with it to an extent, but some drugs should be regulated because of their tendency to be extremely addictive. Regulation and enforcement is a continous process, unlike war, a "policing" action is never finished. A war that never ends and has no clear victory is demoralising, so "War on drugs" should not be used to indicate policing action ad in this sense the UN is right, it is something that cannot be won. I however believe that an extremely draconian aproach to illegal drug use/smuggling definitely reduces the availability of drug on the market, reducing the chances of drug abuses.
 
A = Legal drugs hurt/kill hundreds of thousands of Americans each year.
B = Illegal drugs, which are usually much more potent and dangerous than legal drugs, do not.
C = the Drug War prevents really dangerous drugs from hurting/killing people--at the hundreds-of-thousands-of-people-each-year level.


And you're saying A & B -> C

My logic is a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.

You're invoking logic, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.
 
The war on drugs can only be won by punishing the users. I would aprove forced internment in rehab clinics, and the payment of heavy fines like ten thousant dollars. As long as it's culturaly acceptable, no police will end this
 
The war on drugs can only be won by punishing the users. I would aprove forced internment in rehab clinics, and the payment of heavy fines like ten thousant dollars. As long as it's culturaly acceptable, no police will end this

Or, in other words, the "war on drugs" cannot be won.
 
Quote war. :twitch:

Lets legalize everything and call it a day.
 
Quote war. :twitch:

Lets legalize everything and call it a day.

I'm not sure about this. While I don't have a problem with allowing someone to destroy their own life with heroin or cocaine, when you throw a family in the mix it becomes very different.

Thus, I think such drugs should probably not be allowed so that if someone who has kids is smoking cocaine, the government can investigate for the likely case of neglect.

That said, I support DECRIMINALIZATION of all drugs. Prison for any drug use is simply dumb. Perhaps even make it a secondary offense, period.
 
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens

I've actually been studying cladistics, and the full breakdown looks more like this:

Metazoa (AKA Animalia)
Eumetazoa
Bilateria
Deuterostomia
Chordata
Craniata (AKA Vertebrata)
Gnathostomata
Eugnathostomata
Teleostomi
Euteleostomi
Sarcopterygii
Rhipidistia
Tetrapodomorpha
Tetrapoda
Amniota
Theropsida
Eupelycosauria
Sphenacodontia
Sphenacodontoidea
Therapsida
Eutherapsida
Neotherapsida
Theriodontia
Eutheriodontia
Cynodontia
Epicynodontia
Eucynodontia
Chiniquodontoidea
Mammaliamorpha
Mammaliaformes
Mammalia
Theria
Eutheria
Epitheria (probably; Exafroplacentalia could also go here, or no intermediate grouping could be here)
Boreoeutheria
Euarchontoglires
Euarchonta
Primatomorpha
Primates
Haplorhini
Simiiformes
Catarrhini
Hominoidea
Hominidae
Homininae
Hominini
Hominina
Homo
Sapiens

Now keep in mind that this is like... half of the actual length of the list. For example, there's a bunch of BS in between Tetrapodomorpha and Tetrapoda, and again in between Mammaliaformes and Mammalia. But yeah, humanity's existence as an animal is pretty well-established.
 
I'd just like to point out that this is pretty shoddy math. Firstly, you aren't taking into account inflation and fluctuations in drug prices, which would be key to any measure of costs or tax revenue. Secondly, demographics changed quite a lot these past 40 years; law enforcement costs would've been lower in the 1970s than now, due to increased population.

In addition, some of that law enforcement money would still have to be spent on drug-related issues, even if marijuana was legalized. The reason is that people are STILL GOING TO GROW AND DISTRIBUTE MARIJUANA, even if legal businesses and growers are available. People who actually grow the stuff would sell it directly to their customers (tax evasion will occur, because individual growers won't collect marijuana taxes out of mere civic duty). And you can't simply ban unauthorized growers, because you can easily grow marijuana in your backyard or in a greenhouse. Thus, you would still need the police cracking down on unauthorized growers and distributors, as well as their buyers.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact it still has cost us a ton of money we could have spent elsewhere. You'd think when we're apparently so anti-deficit, we'd at least cut this crap out.

Sure, some would say that could have negative effects outside the deficit reduction but umm... I'll ignore such comments since the same individuals tend to ignore the positive effects of deficit increases in some circumstances.

See? Each of us does have circumstances under which we don't consider personal privacy a priority. People merely disagree on which ones.

Well I could tell you that.

So it's not actually privacy itself that is important, is it.....? No. It's the issue behind the privacy that a person considers important, and that's different for everybody. Liberals are okay with invading privacy for some reasons; conservatives are okay with invading privacy for other reasons. Therefore privacy itself is unimportant, and should not be brought up as an argument for legalizing.

Well, of course. I believe in negative liberty. But I hold the collective negative liberty to be a bit more valuable than individual negative liberty. So, I'm perfectly content with taking half a million dollars' worth of income and spreading it amongst people who are struggling to feed, clothe, and house themselves and are left to die simply because they can't afford medicine.

I'd prefer charity do this, but alas, it doesn't. Even with as much as the wealthy give, it's not enough to erase these issues. Especially since it's impossible for everyone to have a job, so just letting people starve makes no sense.

I like how we look back at 20s prohibition with the hindsight to realize how stupid and harmful it was, but for some reason can't apply that logic to today's prohibition.

Tell me about it.

To be fair, many drugs are worse than alcohol, and also less rooted in our culture, however.

That being said, marijuana use has become so prevalent that prohibition of that is doomed. Prohibition of cocaine and heroin at least, isn't as much an issue.

Plus, marijuana's half the Cartels' income, more or less. Legalise it and tear them apart in the process, all without firing a single shot.

Thus, I think such drugs should probably not be allowed so that if someone who has kids is smoking cocaine, the government can investigate for the likely case of neglect.

Why do drugs have to be a part of this at all?

Seek out neglect period, and look for warning signs: Poor school grades, high youth crime rates, etc. Drug addiction would just be one of the warning signs of a neglectful parent.
 
Why do drugs have to be a part of this at all?

Seek out neglect period, and look for warning signs: Poor school grades, high youth crime rates, etc. Drug addiction would just be one of the warning signs of a neglectful parent.

The thing is that its rare to have someone smoking cocaine who's a competent parent.

So I say this, if somebody is using a hard drug like that, it should be illegal so the government can legally search. Note that this would not be taken advantage of if the person doesn't have a family. Then, if neglect is shown, they either get rehab or their kids get moved somewhere else.
 
EDIT: In addition, some of that law enforcement money would still have to be spent on drug-related issues, even if marijuana was legalized. The reason is that people are STILL GOING TO GROW AND DISTRIBUTE MARIJUANA, even if legal businesses and growers are available. People who actually grow the stuff would sell it directly to their customers (tax evasion will occur, because individual growers won't collect marijuana taxes out of mere civic duty). And you can't simply ban unauthorized growers, because you can easily grow marijuana in your backyard or in a greenhouse. Thus, you would still need the police cracking down on unauthorized growers and distributors, as well as their buyers.

Erm... does that mean that someone who has, say, a vegetable garden over there should fear having the police knock down their door in an investigation over possible tax evasion?
 
Erm... does that mean that someone who has, say, a vegetable garden over there should fear having the police knock down their door in an investigation over possible tax evasion?

Obviously not; it's illegal for the police to go onto someone's private property without a warrant, unless there is an emergency like a robbery or murder. Unless the police have a good reason to suspect you're growing marijuana, they wouldn't be able to search your property.
 
Marijuana enjoys a reputation of being easy to grow, but it seems that upon deeper analysis, it is NOT that easy. It actually takes a fair amount of investment in terms of time and skill.

I'll let others give the precise details, but fears of everyone growing their own pot probably won't be well-founded.

Never mind, the cottage industry would kill itself off - not everyone's gonna grow a ton if they don't have a market.

Either way, let's assume everyone grew their own pot(unlikely). We're still not padding the pockets of the butchers of Mexico.
 
This...

The problem is, most people don't even get caught anyways, so why keep the laws?

The (legitimate) reason is deterrence. Same as the speeding laws - they don't ticket 1% of speeders, but few people are suggesting doing away with speeding laws. Hell, certain forms of theft (burglary, IIRC) rarely result in arrests, but we wouldn't do away with burglary as a crime.

The illegitimate reason is to give civil authorities on-scene probable cause and eventually justification for throwing the dregs of society in jail.
 
I will. It's worth it. Your paragraph above is meaningless--the number of people hurt or killed in anti-drug raids is only meaningful when compared against the number of people hurt or killed by drugs themselves.

Which drugs, legal or illegal? Because in recent years deaths from entirely legal drugs have been skyrocketing, along with illegal drugs. So, clearly, these raids aren't protecting anyone.

That's a loaded question. It assumes Portugal's decriminalization policy was successful. It was not. Portugal's REHAB program was successful. As are, indeed, almost all rehab programs everywhere else in the world. Drug education, prevention, and recovery programs are almost always highly successful at reducing drug problems. Portugal's turnaround was the result of its rehab program, and there's no justification for giving the credit to decriminalization.

Now this is just flatly untrue. Decriminalization and other harm reduction strategies, such as clean needles, have significantly reduced problem drug use and specifically the use of intravenous heroin. It even says this in the report discussed by the OP, which you apparently did not read in all your "exhaustive" research.


Exactly. However, note the word I underlined. Banning something like cocaine prevents more people from being hurt/killed by cocaine than are hurt/killed by drug raids. And yes, if we ban alcohol or tobacco, that would reduce the number of people who die from them.....but, and this is the part you left out, by how much?

According to the Global Commission on Drug Policy Report (the one discussed in the OP, and located here) the use of cocaine increased worldwide 27% from 1998-2008. So, how is banning something reducing it's usage again?

Personally, with alcohol and tobacco: I don't care. American culture being what it is right now, bans on tobacco and alcohol will not happen in the U.S. any time soon; regardless of whether or not such bans should happen, they won't. So I'm not going to bother worrying about it.

Ahh, even though they are both incredibly harmful and incredibly addictive for many people, even more so than heroin and cocaine.

Because that same rule holds true with everything else. Dangerous stuff that's legal almost always kills more people in the long term. When people want to stop something from hurting people, what do they do with it? They ban it.

Or, in the case of a legal, regulated product like cigarettes, they use education and public awareness campaigns to tell people how dangerous it is.

How we Americans spend our money is part of our private lives. Yet, unless I misunderstood you, you don't seem to have a problem with taking money from rich people to help poor people. The very same people who want drugs legalized out of concern for privacy, suddenly stop caring about privacy when it comes to dipping into the pockets of rich people to "make them pay their fair share" or whatever the current slogan is.

They do the same thing with guns vs. drugs. The same people who want to BAN guns in order to prevent guns from killing people, are trying to LEGALIZE drugs--their reason being, in order to prevent drugs from killing people. The logical disconnect there is just unbelievable. Cue cheesy joke: the only real difference between cocaine and a shotgun is that a shotgun hurts more when you shove it up your nose. :D

Oh, this old spiel of yours. I know it may be hard for you to believe this but many people like their guns and their drugs. But, I suppose you can keep grouping people together in broad sweeping statements like that, inaccurate though they may be.

That doesn't make a case for decriminalizing. A tug of war can always be won two ways. The above disconnect can be resolved either by legalizing weed or banning it. Yes, I agree that many hypocrisies exist in politics--the fact that hypocrisy exists does not imply an answer to how it should be solved.

Since marijuana is essentially harmless, why ban it at all?

The two merely happened at the same time. Which doesn't mean anything. Prove specifically that the one caused the other.

The NIDA has already provided extensive proof (forty years of it) that rehab programs reduce drug use. What actually happened in Portugal is this: Portugal's rehab programs reduced drug use. Less drug use resulted in less crime. (just because you see a fire truck show up every time you see a house on fire, doesn't mean fire trucks cause fires.....)

Already has been mentioned in the Global Commission on Drug Policy Report, in which it was concluded that decriminalization and harm reduction reduced problem drug use and drug use rates.

Surpiiiiise! The Netherlands only decriminalized cannabis--their policy on other drugs, especially hard drugs such as cocaine and heroin, is even tougher than that in the United States! Plus, the Netherlands is also doing the same thing Portugal did: rehab programs. Which, as I already said (with source) are successful. False cause and effect again. It's not the decrim that reduced the Netherlands' drug problem, it's the rehab.

Actually, this is also wrong. Heroin and Cocaine are both illegal in the Netherlands but they also have harm reduction (clean needles, medically prescribed heroin, etc) which has almost halved the number of heroin users. That's something we definitely don't do over here.

Source, with verifiable numbers. Or it didn't happen.

Don't bother. I've looked myself, many times, and can never find reliable statistics. How many shootings with Tommy guns? How much violence and corruption? Been there, done that, couldn't find an answer.

Unrelated side note: the desire to escape the dismal reality of the Depression was what actually caused people to turn against Prohibition, a program that was widely approved by the voters when it was first implemented. People wanted to get smashed in order to forget the Depression for half an hour at a time.

Nah, it was because people didn't want to continue a failed policy that enriched corrupt bootlegging kingpins.
 
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