UN Report: The US owes reparations to black Americans for slavery

[Camikaze]

I suspect we're more concerned with the moral position here, than with finding a basis for actual liability. Statutes of limitation typically exist to a) limit the forensic disadvantage that would be caused by bringing a legal claim arising out of facts long since passed, and b) provide legal certainty. Neither consideration is particularly relevant when considering broader issues of intergenerational equity and affirmative action.

I think there's a very strong argument for some form of adjustment between the positions of person A and person B, if person A has been born into an advantageous position due to the exploitation of person B's ancestors, which has also caused person B to be born into a disadvantageous position. The question then is the extent to which you can trace advantage and disadvantage to America's history of slavery.

Of course, a direct penalty payable by person A into the bank account of person B would be pretty crude, and would fail to address the issues of advantage and disadvantage. But forms of government assistance, which ultimately place a higher net tax burden on person A, don't seem objectionable.

 

[BvBPL]

Actually to call it 'slavery' may not be accurate. The major differences is that when Native American's took 'slaves', they were very often prisoners of war captured after performing a raid or during a raid. Even though they were made to do labor and various other tasks that the warrior they killed did before the raid, they were slowly integrated into their captors tribe before becoming a full member after several seasons for religious reasons at least in the Iroquois tradition.

Slavery certainly existed in pre-Columbian North America. It was part of the economy for multiple cultures and, for some of those, slaves were seen as property. It certainly is accurate to call it slavery.

And it is certainly accurate to distinguish the African slave trade and the resulting institutions from pre-Columbian slavery.

I bring this up because we so easily wash over the history of other cultures. It's easy to forget that some pre-Columbian Americans kept slaves just as it is easy to forget that Cherokee kept African slaves in the same manner as white men did. We shouldn't be so ethnocentric as to assume that other cultures have not walked the same roads whites have.

The issue of Cherokee slaves also brings up a point regarding creative ways to address reparations. An easy way* to give a start to resolving past injustices would be for the Cherokee to recognize the Freedmen as part of their nation. Certainly doing so is incomplete relative to the whole issue, but it would serve as an example of how the greater society might proceed with reconciling its past sins.

*Not actually easy. Just slightly less complex.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The term slavery can refer to a wide range if institutions of involuntary labor. Some systems existed in the Americas long before European arrival, but those were not the same as each other, or as the forms of slavery known in the old world, or as the form that would develop later in America.

Some tribes certainly incorporated former prisoners of war into their tribe after a while on a regular basis, but some did not. Some of them treated children born into slavery as slaves, although most did not. Some allowed war prisoners to be traded for profit, while others did not. Some considered slaves the personal property of specific individuals, but many considered them enslaved to the whole community.

The Mississippian culture that dominated what is now the Southeastern US practiced something far closer to chattel slavery than did Northern groups like the Iroquois.

 

[Lexicus]

Some tribes certainly incorporated former prisoners of war into their tribe after a while on a regular basis, but some did not. Some of them treated children born into slavery as slaves, although most did not. Some allowed war prisoners to be traded for profit, while others did not. Some considered slaves the personal property of specific individuals, but many considered them enslaved to the whole community.

Yep. And of course the actual treatment of slaves varied greatly. In the case of US slavery the slaves were often treated with gratuitous brutality and forced to work so hard that the mortality rates were appallingly high. I would tend to doubt that you'd see anything quite like that in the indigenous societies but obviously there aren't going to be any statistics.

I bring this up because we so easily wash over the history of other cultures. It's easy to forget that some pre-Columbian Americans kept slaves just as it is easy to forget that Cherokee kept African slaves in the same manner as white men did. We shouldn't be so ethnocentric as to assume that other cultures have not walked the same roads whites have.

But the point is that while these societies had slavery it wasn't really walking the same roads whites have. Another major difference is that by contrast with the USA no pre-Colombian indigenous society was explicitly founded on the ideal that "all men are created equal." In any case pre-Colombian society is irrelevant to the topic of reparations as it's presumably the US government that will be managing the reparations.

 

[BvBPL]

But the point is that while these societies had slavery it wasn't really walking the same roads whites have. Another major difference is that by contrast with the USA no pre-Colombian indigenous society was explicitly founded on the ideal that "all men are created equal." In any case pre-Colombian society is irrelevant to the topic of reparations as it's presumably the US government that will be managing the reparations.

The United States walks in the steps of the Iroquois Confederacy in its dedication to democracy just as it surely walks in those of John's Barons in terms of devolution of power. Our culture, as with every culture, stands upon the shoulders of those that came before it and interlocked with its contemporaries. There are lessons to be learned everywhere.

 

[Lexicus]

The United States walks in the steps of the Iroquois Confederacy in its dedication to democracy just as it surely walks in those of John's Barons in terms of devolution of power. Our culture, as with every culture, stands upon the shoulders of those that came before it and interlocked with its contemporaries. There are lessons to be learned everywhere.

Again I fail to see what this has to do with the responsibility the USA has towards the descendants of slaves who were enslaved by the USA.

 

[BvBPL]

Again I fail to see what this has to do with the responsibility the USA has towards the descendants of slaves who were enslaved by the USA.

The issue of Cherokee slaves also brings up a point regarding creative ways to address reparations. An easy way* to give a start to resolving past injustices would be for the Cherokee to recognize the Freedmen as part of their nation. Certainly doing so is incomplete relative to the whole issue, but it would serve as an example of how the greater society might proceed with reconciling its past sins.

*Not actually easy. Just slightly less complex.

 

[Lexicus]

How can the lesson of the Cherokee acknowledging the Freedmen as part of their nation be applied to the US?

 

[Synobun]

Who said anything about people being rewarded or punished? I'm talking the US government as a government entity, not white people in general. When there's a lawsuit against a company, it's not targeting directly each individual worker. I'm talking about damages to a family's earning potential. In my analogy, your grandpa is dead and that tremendously impacts your family's earning potential in the future. This can cascade into your father not being able to afford school and ultimately you not going to school yourself.

I'll point you to the bottom of my post here because it addresses what you've said as well.

Inheritance tax 100%? Ban private education? Reassign children to parents by lottery? Equalize all wealth and capital every 20 years?

No. Everyone in those equations are alive and directly impacted by what's happening in the moment. Past oppressions of centuries past do not fit that bill.

I'm not sure that reward and punishment is the right way to look at it.

Is it punishment to take artwork, which had been expropriated by the German government from a Jewish family, away from the young German who has received it as a bequest from their Nazi grandfather, and is it a reward to return it to the descendants of the Jewish family who were murdered?

Yes. If the German family wants to give it back, they can. I don't think they should be obligated to. The people who committed the crime are gone, the person who created the art is gone. Sentimentality shouldn't be policed or otherwise dictated.

The effects still persist and near slavery existed long afterwards for Southern blacks

If you're crafty enough, you can find the effects of any aggressive act against a demographic or subset of peoples for centuries after the fact. That's the side effect of our experience of time being linear: everything trickles down and echoes. I don't think Scandinavian countries should be paying reparations for their tribal invasion of the English Isles starting in 865, and they're not. Because that would be silly. Reparations only make sense if people directly impacted by the action are still alive. They're the ones who should be receiving compensation, not those who weren't even alive during the implied aggression/oppression. It sucks if your life is worse because of what happened to your ancestors, but that's life. Everyone can go far back enough in time to find a moment in their family's history that set the stage for its future.

Slavery was a systemic oppression that affected a significant portion of the population, this much is true, but we have passed the point of where direct reparations will impact anyone in a genuinely meaningful way. That ship has sailed. It's time to move onto other approaches, like equalizing uneven treatments throughout our society, ensuring everyone receives equal opportunity, and having programs for allowing people to escape harmful or stagnant environments. None of these are explicitly about slavery. Slavery is an aggression of old. We have problems today to focus on that are more pertinent and more impacting.

 

[Hygro]

No. Everyone in those equations are alive and directly impacted by what's happening in the moment. Past oppressions of centuries past do not fit that bill.

Everyone alive today is directly impacted by their governing circumstances. Your delineation lacks felicity. Can you articulate a difference?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I don't think people should be rewarded or punished for the mistakes and events that occurred before they were even alive, no.

There's the pitch!!!

Inheritance tax 100%? Ban private education? Reassign children to parents by lottery? Equalize all wealth and capital every 20 years?

And it's a line drive to deep center!!!

It's GONE!!!!

Home run!

 

[Synobun]

Everyone alive today is directly impacted by their governing circumstances. Your delineation lacks felicity. Can you articulate a difference?

I don't know what you just said to me. If you could rephrase, it'd be much appreciated.

 

[Lexicus]

I don't know what you just said to me. If you could rephrase, it'd be much appreciated.

You created a distinction that in fact doesn't exist. Everyone alive right now is in part where they are due to things that happened before they were born. You offer "I don't think people should be punished or rewarded for what happened before they were born" as an argument for why there should be no reparations yet fail to acknowledge that one's situation being influenced by events that happened before they were born is an unavoidable condition for us.

 

[Synobun]

You created a distinction that in fact doesn't exist. Everyone alive right now is in part where they are due to things that happened before they were born. You offer "I don't think people should be punished or rewarded for what happened before they were born" as an argument for why there should be no reparations yet fail to acknowledge that one's situation being influenced by events that happened before they were born is an unavoidable condition for us.

Oh. In that case, read the rest of the post where that distinction was made.

 

[Lexicus]

What the heck are you talking about? You still haven't recognized the actual point that everyone is penalized and rewarded for things that happened before they were born, so you're in effect arguing we need to create a special exception for that rule in the case of reparations for slavery. The irony is particularly acute when we realize that 'people shouldn't be punished for things that happened before they were born' is exactly why we need reparations.

 

[Synobun]

What the heck are you talking about? You still haven't recognized the actual point that everyone is penalized and rewarded for things that happened before they were born, so you're in effect arguing we need to create a special exception for that rule in the case of reparations for slavery. The irony is particularly acute when we realize that 'people shouldn't be punished for things that happened before they were born' is exactly why we need reparations.

Nope. I'll copy paste what I said since it's clear you didn't read it.

If you're crafty enough, you can find the effects of any aggressive act against a demographic or subset of peoples for centuries after the fact. That's the side effect of our experience of time being linear: everything trickles down and echoes. I don't think Scandinavian countries should be paying reparations for their tribal invasion of the English Isles starting in 865, and they're not. Because that would be silly. Reparations only make sense if people directly impacted by the action are still alive. They're the ones who should be receiving compensation, not those who weren't even alive during the implied aggression/oppression. It sucks if your life is worse because of what happened to your ancestors, but that's life. Everyone can go far back enough in time to find a moment in their family's history that set the stage for its future.

Slavery was a systemic oppression that affected a significant portion of the population, this much is true, but we have passed the point of where direct reparations will impact anyone in a genuinely meaningful way. That ship has sailed. It's time to move onto other approaches, like equalizing uneven treatments throughout our society, ensuring everyone receives equal opportunity, and having programs for allowing people to escape harmful or stagnant environments. None of these are explicitly about slavery. Slavery is an aggression of old. We have problems today to focus on that are more pertinent and more impacting.

 

[Lexicus]

It sucks if your life is worse because of what happened to your ancestors, but that's life.

I think I prefer the civilization I'm part of to be governed by moral principles higher than this. And of course, you do too which is why you presumably don't believe in things like hereditary titles or status.

 

[Gori the Grey]

When you go look at the document, it doesn't use the word "reparations" (which a lot of people tend immediately to equate with cash payments of some sort) but rather "reparatory justice":

"Past injustices and crimes against African Americans need to be addressed with reparatory justice."

This is near the beginning of a long list of practical reforms, including criminal justice reform, etc. but not including cash payments.

FWIW

 

[Synobun]

I think I prefer the civilization I'm part of to be governed by moral principles higher than this. And of course, you do too which is why you presumably don't believe in things like hereditary titles or status.

What moral principle is this? Most everything we have gained or now enjoy was built on the backs of the oppressed. It is naive if you believe the civilization you're a part of regularly repairs past grievances on a national scale.

 

[FriendlyFire]

This would NOT be an issue had Lincoln lived and the law for reparations of the black slaves had passed.
A parcel of Federal land and surplus army mule as reparation, would have closed the reparation question.