Understanding Philosophical

[riapopia]

So, I've been playing for a while and can win on Prince/Monarch fairly regularly. But I've never played a Philo leader and (perhaps related) have never played a SE.

On the surface, the +100% GPP doesn't seem like it would translate into too many more GP over the course of one of my games. I suspect the bigger advantage is not the number of GP but the fact that they come earlier. But it's hard for me to really quantify that.

So my question is- is Philosophical really a good trait in a CE or is it mostly useful in a SE? A related question- in a SE do you have multiple GP farms or do you still primarily have one? Seems like you would still have a National Epic city but perhaps you can spread GP around...

 

[Verge]

I don't have the math on me, but the +100% GPP does translate into significantly more GPs over the course of a game. I'll try to find the approximate % increase later tonight, or maybe someone has it on them at the moment.

I'm of the opinion that Philosophical is a great trait all around, no matter what economy you use.

 

[Gliese 581]

Yeah, philosophical is a top tier trait for pretty much every game, unless you totally ignore great people for some strange reason. Could be a roman steam roll or something where you would have no use of it..

 

[Darth Meanie]

Philosophical = Awesome

 

[Harbourboy]

Try going for a fast cultural win with a philosophical and a non-philosophical leader and see the difference. Two or three more Great Artists bombed in your cities translates into many many turns shaved off your time.

 

[Jet]

is Philosophical really a good trait in a CE?

It's as good as any other trait, but you'll have trouble using it if every point of population is working a cottage. I suggest you think about what you mean by CE.

in a SE do you have multiple GP farms or do you still primarily have one?

Multiple, but be careful about looking for formulas. There's a lot of variance between games, and even on average, many ways of playing can be viable.

 

[Roxlimn]

The best way to see how potent Philo is is to do a simple exercise. In your next game, prioritize the founding and growth of a GP farm (you're a Prince player, so you should know how to do that). Make for Writing ASAP and whip out a Library, then use 2 Great Scientists in that city. As soon as the GS comes out (and it'll come out fast, I assure you), settle it. Final step: stand back and be amazed at the science output.

Mix with Pyramids & Representation for optimum results.

 

[Porphyrius]

Philo is a very good trait and of decent use in any game provided you know how to generate and use GP, regardless of the type of economy one sets up.(unless one never sets up a GP farm for some weird to me reason.)

The cheap univs / fast Oxford is also pretty straightforward to utilize and tied up well with beelining liberalism.



Ofcourse this allready shows it to be of less a straight out of the box trait than say financial.

However you can really turn philo to the most awesome trait in the game if you pay close attention to the GP type generated early/mid game. And know how to leverage their use offcourse.

Generating GScientists/GArtists faster and getting a couple more is nice (say an extra GScient racing for liberalism), but:
A huge part of the traits appeal is getting the first couple of GP to be of a specific type otherwise tough to generate. Generating a GEnigineer or a GSpy in BTS very early with much less effort and faster can simply lead to a substantial advantage. With philo the fist two GP come pretty fast even with one specialist or one wonder making GPP for them, so you really get them choosing their type and without trully having to set up a proper economy.

Ideally a philo leader sets up multiple GP farms early on (i.e. till late meieval/early renais) to make the type off GP he needs and maximize the bonus he gets. Pacifism can echance this setup as well.
Later offcourse the GP cost becomes prohibitive and GPs value declines so switching to a single NE boosted GP farm makes sense.

 

[Babibo]

On the surface, the +100% GPP doesn't seem like it would translate into too many more GP over the course of one of my games. I suspect the bigger advantage is not the number of GP but the fact that they come earlier. But it's hard for me to really quantify that.

On the mathematical point of view, the number of GPP you have to spend to get n great people is 100+200+300+400+... +100*n (in fact, more than 100*n. Let's approximate), which is :
100 * n * (n+1) /2 = O(n^2)

Let's take an example : to have 5 great people, you'll need 1500 GPP. A philo leader, with 3000 GPP, would get 7 great people.
Roughly, a philo leader gets 40% more great people than a normal leader on that basis (the 40% comes from sqrt(2), not from the 7/5)

However, you need to take into account the fact that the +100% bonus is additive, and not multiplicative. Any leader will usually produce its GPP in a GP farm mainly, with a National Epic (+100% to GPP). So on the long run, being philosophical only adds 50% to the GPP output, instead of +100%

So a theorem :
In the long run, being philosophical gives you +22% more great people, which is not a lot !

(the +22% comes from sqrt(1.5))


So you are definitely right when you say that the main advantage of being philosophical is to get great people earlier. I once had a game with Pericles (Emperor) where I beelined Writing while RExing on a very high food land. 2 scientists in 4 cities rocks !

 

[noto]

Don't underestimate the difference it makes to get that great person early. If you pop 2 scientists by the time you hit writing, imagine the difference that makes in the game, compared to if you popped a scientist while researching chemistry. All of the GPs work at their maximum potential in the early game, and start to decline in effectiveness as the game wears on. BTS changed this a little with the advent of corporations. Now your GPs can still do something very powerful later on in the game - founding a corporation. However, I still think a GP is worth the most early on in the game. If you pop a bunch of scientists early on, and found an academy in your best trade city and then settle the others there as well, your science output will allow you to win the liberalism race without even bulbing, and you can do that up to emperor level, not sure about higher. Also, getting engineers to build those early wonders like the hanging gardens and notre dame is, well, wonderful. The early wonders, in my opinion, are more significant to the outcome of the game than the later wonders. For example, broadway, hollywood, and rocknroll are all great for cultural wins, but they come so late, they can't compare to getting the sistine chapel. If you get the sistine chapel in the early game and run a SE, you have an amazing advantage for a cultural win. The pyramids, parthenon, hanging gardens, and notre dame are extremely powerful wonders that will help out almost any strategy. There are articles about early great spies being imbalanced because they are so powerful. An early great prophet lets you roll in cash. Heck, even early artists can be useful. If you settle a couple in your border cities, watch as you enemies' cities revolt and become yours by the middle ages. That simply wouldn't happen if you used a GA later in the game. Later in the game, even if you drop the culture bomb on a city it usually has a very minor effect. So yes, getting GPs sooner rather than later is enough to make the difference between winning and losing.

 

[Gooblah]

Think about it like this:
Grabbed Writing, are teching to Priesthood. I built a Library in my food-heavy quasi-GP Farm City. I put out two Scientists, and with philosophical, hey! I now have 12 GPP in that city per turn. In 9 turns, enough to grab Priesthood, I can pop a Great Scientist, lightbulb Code of Laws. Rinse and repeat. The potency increases when playing a full-blown SE, with Caste System, Pacifism, and the Pyramids. That means unlimited Merchants, Scientists, and Artists, each giving +3 flasks, and all my cities having +200% GP points! It doesn't necessarily translate to more, but they come quicker.

 

[riapopia]

All very helpful! Thanks.

One follow-up question- I think I'm misusing GP and therefore not feeling the full value of this trait. I typically use GP for their "primary" function. Prophets for shrines, Engineers to rush wonders, Merchants for trade missions, Scientists for Academies or to bulb. I rarely (never?) use them as settled super-specialists.

Some of your comments led me to believe this is a huge mistake. What am I missing? For example, it seems like an Academy (+50% beakers) would generate far more incremental research even in a second commerce farm then a settled scientist is my primary city, no? Are all specialist points applied before all multipliers? Do their beakers get library, Academy, etc. bonuses as well? Is there some number of base beakers that determine whether it's better to build an Academy or super specialist?

Math seems straighforward to me but I suspect my math is missing something important or I'd be settling much more often.

 

[popejubal]

Philosophical is an outstanding trait for a Specialist Economy. It is also an outstanding trait for a Cottage Economy, for an Espionage Economy or for just about any other economy that you would care to mention.

A Cottage Economy won't be generating any GPP in most of its cities, but there will always be a couple of cities that can and will run specialists. Being able to generate twice as many GP points is outstanding when it means you can leverage the Great People along with the cottages to create an economy that combines a lot of the best of both.

My favorite trait pre-BTS was Spiritual. The enormous flexibility was wonderful. With Golden Ages and Cristo Redentor available in BTS, I'm not as keen on Spiritual. Philosophical, Creative and Organized all sit at the top of my list of favorites now.

 

[UncleJJ]

On the mathematical point of view, the number of GPP you have to spend to get n great people is 100+200+300+400+... +100*n (in fact, more than 100*n. Let's approximate), which is :
100 * n * (n+1) /2 = O(n^2)

Unfortunately, this only true for the first 10 GP. After 10 GP the cost increases by 200 for each GP, so the 11th costs 1200 GPPs and the 12th costs 1400 and so on. And after 20 GP the costs increase by 300 so the 21st GP costs 3300 GPPs to produce. Your formula needs to be modified above 10 GP.

This means that producing:
10 GP costs 5500 GPPs in total
20 GP costs 26500 GPPs in total
30 GP costs 73000 GPp in total

So the first 10 GP cost 550 GPPs on average. The next 10 GP costs an average of 2100 GPPs. The 10 GP from the 20th to 30th cost an average of 4650 GPPs. It takes nearly as many GPPs to produce a single GP in the 20's as it does to produce the first 10 GP.

These numbers explain why a single GP farm for a non Philosophical player can appear to compete with a SE. It is easy for a single GP farm (driven by food) with the NE and a few specialists to produce the first 10 or so GP. For example if it runs 6 scientists with the Caste System it will produce (6 x 3 + 1) * (1 + 100%) = 38 GPPs / turn. Running a GP farm like that for 200 turns, as many CEs would, gives 7600 GPPs which is enough to produce 11 GPs and some to spare. A limitation on this method is that the Caste System is a poor civic for a CE when Emancipation becomes available as it only benefits one city while many new cottages benefit from Emancipation. Adding the Great Library can add another 16 GPPs /turn and is not reliant on the Caste System. By the time the Caste System is no longer needed several buildings can be installed such as markets and jails that allow a mixture of specialists. A CE can do a lot with a single GP farm merely because the costs are low and then escalate so rapidly.

The Philosophical trait is like have a NE in all your cities right from the start. That frees the SE player from relying on a single GP Farm and he can use several cities to contribute to the total of GPs. Using the +100% bonus from a GA and switching to Pacifism for the period of the GA can produce several extra GPs by boosting GPP production. I often don't build the NE until later in the game in a good city with several captured wonders. The NE is nothing like as important for a Philosophical leader.

 

[noto]

riapopia, yes anything that a specialist generates is subject to multiplier effects. Banks, markets, etc effect merchants, libraries etc effect scientists, cathedrals effect artists, and forges etc effect engineers. Making the decision between building an academy and settling a great scientist involves some math on your part. If you have several high commerce cities then it would be most beneficial to plant an academy in each of them - like when you are running a cottage economy. However, there will come a point when it makes more sense to settle the GS in the super science city (the city with oxford university). A great scientist under representation gives 9 beakers. If you have a library, university, observatory, academy, and oxford in the city, the GS will create roughly 20 beakers per turn settled in. That will go up a further 2-3 beakers with a laboratory. Often if you are running a specialist economy you will not have high commerce cities and it will make more sense to settle most of your great scientists (if you don't use them to bulb) in your super science city. You can do a similar thing with merchants, settling the great merchants in your wallstreet city (the city where you run a lot of merchant specialists too). So keep that in mind - all specialist output is raw output and subject to multipliers.

 

[riapopia]

Noto, thanks. Your message makes sense and actually echoes what I thought. I typically win before the end game and am not at the point where all my high-commerce cities have academies. Part of the explanation is that I tend to have a fairly random distribution of GP so I don't neccasarily get more than 2-3 Scientists. I get Merchants, Prophets, etc.

Is this an error on my part? I *try* to combine my GP farm with a "wonder city" to maximize GPP. This seems to work well for me with the caveats-

1. I lose some control over what type of GP I get
2. I'm clearly not maximizing the # of specialists I'm running in the long run by focusing some effort on hammers. This is mitigated somewhat by early chops but is still true to some extent.

Is this considered a reasonable best practice or do most of you have a GP farm with no thought to leveraging Wonder GPP?

 

[noto]

Well it depends on your overall strategy, your leader, and resources. The perfect scenario is having tons of land and resources, being able to specialize. If I have a lot of high food land and I am using a philosophical leader, I'll probably create several GP farms. However, usually I get a ton of scientists in my games becaues when I'm using that strategy I'll use the caste system civic and one of my GP farms will get all scientists. Another one of my gp farms will get most of the wonders, because it will be a high production farm, sometiems the capital can be used as a wonder + gp farm because you can chop out wonders and then have grassland underneath to irrigate. But you can specialize your gp farms - like having one merchant city, one scientist city, etc, and then if you get a great engineer you could, say, build the great library in the science farm. If I'm running a specialist economy then that science city will become my super science city with oxford, etc. Anyway, that's all idealic. Often you simply don't have the resources to do that. Wonders help produce gp points in the early game, but remember that each wonder only gives 2 gpps and each specialist gives 3. In the long run, if you want a lot of great people, you need to run a lot of specialists. One more thing - remember that the great merchant gives a food bonus to a city. If you settle great merchants in a city you will help that city run even more specialists.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Something I like to do with philosophical. Don't build any wonders, but instead have two of your early food rich cities assign two scientists each. One city will generate two great scientists, one at 100 and another at 300 (400 points total). The second city will generate one great scientist at 200.

It's a relatively painless way (it does have an adverse affect on production) to generate a fistful of great scientists early in the game.

 

[popejubal]

Some of your comments led me to believe this is a huge mistake. What am I missing? For example, it seems like an Academy (+50% beakers) would generate far more incremental research even in a second commerce farm then a settled scientist is my primary city, no? Are all specialist points applied before all multipliers? Do their beakers get library, Academy, etc. bonuses as well? Is there some number of base beakers that determine whether it's better to build an Academy or super specialist?

Math seems straighforward to me but I suspect my math is missing something important or I'd be settling much more often.

You're right on the money there. A city has to make about 50 raw beakers (before multipliers) to an Academy in that city more effective than settling your specialist in a city with all of the science buildings plus Oxford University.

That's because the Oxford city gets
Library +25
Uni +25
Observatory + 25
Academy +50
Oxford +100
Total = +225%

(Ignoring Labs and Monasteries)

That turns +9 research (with Representation) per turn into +20.25 research per turn.

In order to get +21 research per turn from an Academy's +50% bonus, you'd have to have 40.5 raw beakers per turn in the city. Don't forget that it's every turn, so you'll have to account for temporarily dropping the research slider, whipping population, unhappy population from wars, etc. None of these has any effect on the settled Great Scientists while they have an enormous impact on the Academy.

...somehow, I think I'm leaving out a building or two because I clearly remember the number of raw beakers being 50-ish, but that's at least a basic analysis.

 

[goldenhero]

Something I like to do with philosophical. Don't build any wonders, but instead have two of your early food rich cities assign two scientists each. One city will generate two great scientists, one at 100 and another at 300 (400 points total). The second city will generate one great scientist at 200.

It's a relatively painless way (it does have an adverse affect on production) to generate a fistful of great scientists early in the game.

This is assuming a Normal speed game right?