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Unexpected attitude hit... Update: with save file

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Bartleby, Aug 28, 2006.

  1. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    If someone can shed any light on this I'd be grateful.

    edit: save attached in this post.

    In the game I am playing at the moment, there were four AI remaining: the Romans, the Sumerians, the Indians and the Greeks. I was at war with the Romans and at peace with everyone else, none of the AI had contacts with anyone but me.

    I destroyed the Romans, razing their last city. The Indians and Greeks were polite, the Sumerains cautious.
    I was busy repositioning some towns and I noticed that after abandoning some towns (including an Arabic one and a Byzantine one) the Sumerians had become furious (the Greeks and Indians were still polite).

    I'm pretty sure the Sumerians never met anyone, so why did this happen...any ideas?
     
  2. thetrooper

    thetrooper Schweinhund

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    The only possibility that I can think of - a Roman galley reached the Farmers coastline before they were destroyed.
     
  3. Twonky

    Twonky King

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    Did you change your government into Republic? Because that is Sumerias shunned government.
     
  4. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    @Trooper: The Sumerians are isolated by Ocean which I'm fairly certain the Romans couldn't cross (unless the Romans researched half the middle ages in a few turns--unlikely at warlord).
    @Twonky: I am in Republic and the Sumerians are in Monarchy. But the attitude changed after abandoning the towns.

    Thanks for the suggestions. Nine times out of 10 when I think something funny is happening, there's an obvious explanation I've overlooked, but this situation really has me stumped.
     
  5. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    My guess is that it's the government and they came out of anarchy at that time.

    But I understand that abandoning captured cities has the same effect as razing them, so maybe that's it.
     
  6. TimBentley

    TimBentley Deity

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  7. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    The more I think about this the more I think it's a bug.

    AT: I think they've been in Monarchy for a while; I've been in Republic for a while and I've razed and abandoned a lot of cities already. The foreign advisor has been telling me the Sumerians have no contacts (I have an Embassy).

    TB: I've had a very large power lead for a long time.

    One thing that worries me a little is I discovered Printing Press on the same turn that I destroyed the Romans; is it possible that gaining the ability to trade contacts has done this?
    I was planning to play this out as a milked Diplo; I guess I'll see if wiping out the Sumerians affects the Attitudes of Gandhi and Alex.
     
  8. adog

    adog Prince

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    ^^^ Not unless you actually traded contacts to the Sumerians. Or if you traded contact with the Romans to any other of the AI's, but they would have to have printing press to trade it to the Sumerians.
     
  9. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    cautious to furious is a huge change. To change that much in one turn makes me think it *has* to be, at least partly, a government change - maybe they got contacts with one of hte civs whose cities you abandoned, as well, plus a trade ended,
     
  10. adog

    adog Prince

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    I've never seen a furious AI just from a change in government. It usually takes alot more than that, nuking other civ's, razing cities, etc.
     
  11. pneuma

    pneuma Its not made by MGLs

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    Abandoning cities that have a mostly foreign population counts as razing, that might be the culprit.
     
  12. axehaxe

    axehaxe Prince

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    Did you have units in their territory? A government problem plus a territory breach plus trading rep broken = furious. When I play deity games, the most aggressive AI's are easily furious when I have different governments, I have a smaller culture, and I just entered their territory without a ROP.

    Plus I noticed something about common AI allies. When Civ A is at War with Civ B, If you break a trade with Civ B, Civ A's attitude seems to go up until Civ A signs peace then you would get the normal hit for trade busts.

    Also if Civ A was instead an ally with Civ B against Civ C and you declared on Civ B, Civ A will be pretty pissed. If you break a trade with Civ B, the attitude hit is actually worse from Civ A than breaking a trade while the two aren't allied.
     
  13. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    if you have a couple of saves, we can look at it. I have no idea if we can figure any of it out, but it does sounds interesting.
     
  14. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    Thanks for the input, people.
    I'm reluctant to post saves at the moment since it's a HoF game in progress (I'll be happy to once I've submitted.
    Just to make the situation clear, the attitude change happened during my turn, they were cautious before and after I destroyed the Romans, and furious after I abandoned some towns. Some of the abandoned towns were previously captured and the pop had been reduced to one by building settlers; presumably the last pop point was still foreign--it is a raze but the Sumerians shouldn't know about it. Also, the Sumerians were not perturbed when I razed all the rest of the Roman cities.
    The Sumerians are backwards (they haven't researched Alpha yet) and checking the trades with MapStat, admittedly a few turns previously when I was at peace with the Romans, they had Map Making but were still in the Ancient era. The Romans had had contacts with a number of other civs, all of whom were destroyed without having met Sumeria (this assumption is based on the ocean-isolation of the Sumerians).
    There were not trades of contacts, or alliances.
    I made a RoP agreement with the Sumerians to see if it cheered them up, but they're still furious.
    I'm not normally so worried about AI attitude, but when I saw three AI with no contacts I couldn't resist the idea of a Diplomatic victory after having ruthlessly wiped out most of the world. There'll still be two, so it's not too late. :D

    I wonder if it's still possible to get a 20k city if I haven't built any culture before ~1000AD ?
     
  15. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    well, you can get a diplo victory, anyway.

    just figure out who your opponent is, declare war and bring the others in on an MA.

    it is very odd - makes me think there is more to attitude than we know about.
     
  16. adog

    adog Prince

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    There is no way you could get a 20k city if you haven't built any culture before 1000 AD, not even close. Though, it would be possible to get the overall culture victory, but it would take alot of work I believe.
     
  17. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    Is it the one with the biggest land area or the highest pop?
    Anyway I'm thinking that I might attempt to get the diplo without excessive bribes; try to keep them both polite and just call the vote in 2050.

    Well, it's not ~quite~ no culture; I built the pyramids and the palace is already there. But it is a tall order...I'm kind of curious how late you can leave it before "starting" a 20k city.
    For the 160k, yeah, not a problem so long as I keep an eye on the borders.
    Spaceship and Domination are taken for granted but if I keep the two AI as they are, conquest will certainly require RoP abuse to be practicable.
     
  18. Tone

    Tone Deity Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well if no one has 25% land or 25% pop, it's the civ with the highest population. (If the AIs are quite close in that respect, it can be quite annoying to see your potential rivals switching places every so often.)

    I'm sure from what you've said that you can still gain a Diplo victory. It would be good to know what's made the Sumerians furious (I'm afraid I have no new ideas) but it could be that they are on the borderline and so you might just be able to get them back to polite in the next 1000 years. Then again you could just wipe them out instead (if you can do that without razing, of course).
     
  19. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    Thanks, I had a feeling that was the case.

    I think I will wipe out the Sumerians; I was going to raze their cities, as my feeling is that the attitude problem is rooted with them, but I suppose it might not be a bad idea to take some settlers to their lands and capture their towns and abandon them with a majority of my citizens.
     
  20. Bartleby

    Bartleby Remembers laughter

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    If anybody is interested to see, I'm attaching a save to this post. I am positive that this is a bug as the attitude hit seems to be linked with the destruction of the Romans...if you play the turn without destroying the Romans you can abandon as many towns as you like and the Sumerians stay cautious. However after you have destroyed the Romans, abandon one 100% foreign town and they will be annoyed, two will make them furious. AFICT it doesn't matter what nationality the foreigners are.

    If you do look at it, here's a warning for what you're getting into:
    Spoiler :


    This is the save file at the start of the turn.

    For what it's worth, I did manage to get my capitol to 20k (it was remarkably easy...you forget how many turns there are in a game!). I couldn't quite get enough culture buildings to manage a second 20k city.
    I did win by diplo in the end, which means it's an all-ways win (my second :D).

    Spoiler :
     

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