UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

[ungy]

I thought I'd try and launch a few SG's of my own.
The spy economy was tried with a pair of concurrent games earlier in RBts-01A and B.
However, in both games early rushes and then mid-game wars gave the teams too strong a position and the remainder of the game was pretty dull.
So I am proposing a game with restrictions on warring as well as limiting research to the worker techs + alpha.

Variant rules:

1. All tech must be stolen except worker techs and alpha.

2. Limited warring--maybe no DOW and allow only 1 city to be captured in a defensive war? Up for discussion.

I think play emperor with a strong leader--maybe Willem to help us claim territory

Anybody game?

 

[Rusten]

I'm game unless you've already lost interest or given up. Unfortunately I didn't notice this thread earlier so if this game is already a goner I'd understand.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd be game if we could change the war limitation. Why not play on immortal against all protective civs (so that we can't do an early rush)? I think that will force us to utilize the espionage elements more and not just rely on early warfare.

 

[Rusten]

I'd also prefer to loosen up the war matter a little and rather step up the difficulty level, the game would become pretty uneventfull otherwise I think. We'd also be in a hopeless position if boxed in early on and not being able to go to war.

 

[ungy]

I'm still game.
As for the level and any restrictions, I'm open to any ideas to make it an interesting game.
The trouble I've had with many of the SG's I've played has been that the team took too much land--often with an early war before the variant really had much effect, and then the game became pretty dull.
So anything you guys think makes sense that would help us get a "true" espionage game sounds good to me.
It'd be good to get another player or two.

 

[pigswill]

I could do with learning about espionage so I could give this one a go. Wouldn't feel comfortable at immortal but emperor in a SG should be ok. Could go with some artifical restriction like no more than x cities (somewhere between 6 and 12) before communism (that's cities built or captured and kept).

 

[mystyfly]

If you need another player I'd like to play too, as I also could do with some knowledge of the espionage system.
You can add another 1-3 civs to reduce empire sizes.
Protective civs to avoid early rush is ok but I think having only those would make any victory but space (and diplo) very hard. Is space the target victory we aim for anyway?

1. All tech must be stolen except worker techs and alpha.

'Worker techs', are these The Weel, Pottery, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Bronze Working, Iron Working?

 

[Morganknight]

Lurking in the "Men in Tights" game has whetted my appetite for an espionage heavy game. Sign me up.

 

[Morganknight]

If you need another player I'd like to play too, as I also could do with some knowledge of the espionage system.
You can add another 1-3 civs to reduce empire sizes.
Protective civs to avoid early rush is ok but I think having only those would make any victory but space (and diplo) very hard. Is space the target victory we aim for anyway?


'Worker techs', are these The Weel, Pottery, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Bronze Working, Iron Working?

I would think worker techs would be any that allowed our workers new abilities, including Masonry, Calendar, Railroad, Scrub Fallout, etc. besides the ones you mentioned.

 

[pigswill]

Could go for a restriction like can only run spy specialists and only build wonders (world and national) that supply GSpy points.

Mapwise it might be easier with all the AI civs on the same landmass so we can get spies embedded early on.

Techwise it makes sense to me to research masonry to allow Great Wall. Maybe something like research mining, bw, masonry, agric, AH, wheel, fishing, writing and alphabet. Everything else must be stolen.

In terms of traits there's quite a few suitable: philosophical to speed up generation of Great Spies, organised for half price courthouses, protective for half price castles.

Maybe of the later techs we could research communism (after stealing scimeth) to get the free Great Spy. What about the internet? That kind of fits in with the theme.

 

[mystyfly]

Spy specialists generate 1 beaker. This doesn't fit (althought it is no factor). I think we'll only run (spy) specialists in one GPfarm

Maybe of the later techs we could research communism (after stealing scimeth) to get the free Great Spy. What about the internet? That kind of fits in with the theme.

Do we really need to break the rules to get ONE great spy? I don't think so.
The Internet wouldn't fit with the theme a bit I think. It doesn't belong to a "true" espionage game as ungy wished I think.

 

[ungy]

OK--good to see we've got interest.

Roster:
1. Ungy
2. Rusten
3. Shyuhe
4. pigswill
5. mystyfly
6. Morganknight

I think that's enough if everyone is still in.

I think we should play for space as VC, and not research any post-worker techs. I think tech wonders such as oracle and internet should also be verboten.

I'm still not sure about a level--I'm thinking either immortal with a strong leader or emperor with a weak one--what does everyone think?

I'd also like some sort of restriction to prevent us from running over a neighbor and getting too big--especially if we do emperor. I guess we could load up a bunch of protective civs--especially at immortal that would make early wars pretty tough. Any ideas?

 

[ungy]

I would think worker techs would be any that allowed our workers new abilities, including Masonry, Calendar, Railroad, Scrub Fallout, etc. besides the ones you mentioned.

I think we should have to steal the advanced ones--IW seems like it could go either way but I think stealing the others is fine.

I would say we should not allow getting tech in trade (including for peace), but allow selling tech or trading tech for war/civics/religion.

 

[ungy]

Maybe something like research mining, bw, masonry, agric, AH, wheel, fishing, writing and alphabet. Everything else must be stolen.

I'd include pottery and hunting in the OK to research catagory. Maybe also myst--seems like denying early border pops not really part of the objective.

 

[Rusten]

As I haven't seen any immortal SG's around here in a long time (mostly emperor and below) I think that would be a welcomed change. I haven't been browsing this forum actively all the time though, so maybe I missed some. Even if espionage is a concept many people don't know inside out (including myself - I tend to just use a couple of functions) it shouldn't be that hard to get into if we just focus a little. I'd rather face the risk of losing than carry on with an easy game. If it proves to be too much for us we can just restart. Haven't come up with anything regarding your concern of early domination yet, will give it some more thought.

I think we should have to steal the advanced ones--IW seems like it could go either way but I think stealing the others is fine.

I would say we should not allow getting tech in trade (including for peace), but allow selling tech or trading tech for war/civics/religion.

Agree with this, but instead of debating whether we're allowed to trade techs for war/civics/religion I think we should make it a priority in order to show that even if you're using espionage you're not behind on everything and uncapable of manipulating the world of politics which seems to be an opinion of many of the posters on the forums.

 

[shyuhe]

Immortal SG's are pretty rare fare around here. I ran a no wonder immortal SG a few months ago and I don't think I've seen any others at that level since. I would prefer immortal + protective civs to limit our rushing capabilities instead of emperor + weak leader. We should also choose a leader that doesn't have an early UU that's effective for rushing. How about the Mayans or the Indians for leaders? Both are strong civs and not particularly well suited for rushing.

I think our allowed techs should be all first and second level techs + BW, writing and alphabet. Mostly to ensure that we don't die from barbs. I also don't think we should have limits on tech trading (extortion etc.) as it will foreclose a lot of diplomatic options. I'd rather leave those on the table at immortal.

 

[pigswill]

Instead of picking a bunch of civs that are difficult to rush and/or picking a civ that doesn't have an early UU we could just discipline ourselves not to rush regardless of temptation.

 

[mystyfly]

I think we should play for space as VC, and not research any post-worker techs. I think tech wonders such as oracle and internet should also be verboten.

That also includes Lib I think.

Agree, Immortal + Strong leader is a good idea.

Dunno about protective civs thought...

Just resist the temptation for an early rush I gues

 

[ungy]

OK-let's make it immortal and pick ourselves a good leader.

IMHO financial rates to be huge for a game like this.

Strongest leader is probably Darius--even if we restrict ourselves from using the UU to rush.

Other possibilities: Maya, England (Vic might be interesting but I don't think as strong as the others).
Willem is a possibility as well--although our variant does not work well with creative.

I'd probably lean towards Darius and restrict ourselves somewhat--maybe no DOW pre alpha or something like that but don't have a strong preference.

 

[pigswill]

Maybe impose a resitriction like max number of cities = 6 +1 for each GSpy we generate. Its not just the early rush it's also the medieval rush.

Regarding techs maybe something like we can research and/or trade all the ancient techs. All classical and later era techs must be stolen.