unhappiness from distance to capital

[Slarki]

Right now there is an extremely harsh penalty having a city too far away from the capital. What is the intention of this? I see the AI considers this and builds very close to thei original city. 10 tiles away already gives -3 .

I always try to build cities far away from each other so even when they have 3 square city radius each in the late game they still can be full efficient. But now I can't do this anymore

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Right now there is an extremely harsh penalty having a city too far away from the capital. What is the intention of this? I see the AI considers this and builds very close to thei original city. 10 tiles away already gives -3 .

I always try to build cities far away from each other so even when they have 3 square city radius each in the late game they still can be full efficient. But now I can't do this anymore

There will be a small correction for AI in next revision. As for human players there's plenty of happiness sources, the purpose of this unhappiness is to counterbalance that happiness which makes the game too easy. Anyway don't worry about unhappiness at start, it will slowly fade as you pass to following eras.

 

[Slarki]

The thing is, I know that happiness is plenty in the late game, but not at the beginning. I also want to found a religion early and not wait until the middle ages until I got powerful enough. Right now, having a city just a little too far away gives me -5 happyness total right at the start. This isn't fun.
I even pick Ghandi so I can have fine cities at the start, but this is negated with this change.

The early game is very important for me, because I want to get the feel that my cities starting to sprawl. I want to have a optimal start and look out for the fine ressources. City placement is a big fun factor in that respect as well as having cities without unhappyness.
I don't understand why the early has to be more restricted?
Maybe you could make slavery more optional in this way, so you trade research boost for city placement? From this kind of view this would be more understandable for me, because slavery is another civic you have to pick right at the start.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Being able to have an optimal start, getting all resources, founding cities very far just to get a good position makes the game too easy in my view.
If you feel the game is too hard like this, you can always play an easier level: you'll get more happiness. But I think most players have been spoiled enough in the past, never having to take unhappiness and unhealthiness into account.
Anyway if you build walls and storyteller circle you get two happiness. Add a religion and switching to monarchy to use happiness from military units and I can't see any problem with unhappiness.

 

[Rezca]

Being able to have an optimal start, getting all resources, founding cities very far just to get a good position makes the game too easy in my view.
If you feel the game is too hard like this, you can always play an easier level: you'll get more happiness. But I think most players have been spoiled enough in the past, never having to take unhappiness and unhealthiness into account.
Anyway if you build walls and storyteller circle you get two happiness. Add a religion and switching to monarchy to use happiness from military units and I can't see any problem with unhappiness.

Depending on what difficulty you start on, getting a religion - even the later ones - might not be possible. Monarchy's a good bet though, I had to solve my Unhappiness problems with that earlier, and between the wars and rebellions that I was having in the eastern part, sometimes 30 ~ 40 units wasn't enough to hold back the anger

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

It might get hard to found a religion, having one is something different. [emoji6]

 

[Rezca]

It might get hard to found a religion, having one is something different. [emoji6]

True, though I keep thinking back to that one time when (Asoka I believe) refused to Open Borders or even sign a Right of Passage with me because I was a "non-believer" and so couldn't get access to his religion. Didn't have something spread to me for centuries, and it ended up being the Siam to the south that provided it. What would have been enemies became friends instead.

Asoka hasn't been that jerk'ish since then, but I keep thinking back to it :/
I didn't have any cities with a religion at the time, and yet he insisted I wasn't worth signing borders with so he COULD spread his religion to me. His loss then. And it was his loss indeed, since after buddying up with Siam years later, we wrecked his nation and I personally razed his Holy City in retribution for the misery he caused my nation in the early goings



Still, short of having a truly isolated start, it shouldn't be too hard to have a religion of some sort trickle over to you eventually.

 

[Slarki]

Being able to have an optimal start, getting all resources, founding cities very far just to get a good position makes the game too easy in my view.
If you feel the game is too hard like this, you can always play an easier level: you'll get more happiness. But I think most players have been spoiled enough in the past, never having to take unhappiness and unhealthiness into account.
Anyway if you build walls and storyteller circle you get two happiness. Add a religion and switching to monarchy to use happiness from military units and I can't see any problem with unhappiness.

I'm fine with the difficulty in general, but I think its weight should be somewhere different. The AI also have had the ability to build cities on more optimal starts. So it is not one-sided but just a change for everyone. You can give the player different challenges, but limiting the decisionmaking doesn't feel right.
I am talking about the very early game, the first hours where you bild your first 3 or 4 cities. Unhappyness in that stage is devastating, because cities get more and more from that if they get a little bit bigger. Most cities can't get bigger than 5 on Emperor.

I think you agree me on here that this isn't the best way of balancing the game. Restricting the player as much as possible until the middle game where the AI has to make too many choices to play good and fail. I believe you try the best to balance it, but I think you understand my point? With the change, an additional part of the early game can't be experienced on higher difficulties. I ended my games in AND because I want have at least "an effect" in the early game. I think I only finished 3 games or so beyond modern and one of it was the orginal Rise of Mankind.
Maybe you can Revolutions more dangerous like in the old versions of the game, where it was a real challenge and cities often revolt just because they were too far way. That is something I prefer much more than just having unhappyness. It also fits better.

 

[Slarki]

I just don't want to have unhappyness right away just because the city is 10 tiles away.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

View attachment 393435
I just don't want to have unhappyness right away just because the city is 10 tiles away.

Then you'll better find some happiness sources or wait next era before expanding that far. Which mapsize are you using? You've got plenty of ways to counter that unhappiness.

 

[Slarki]

Then you'll better find some happiness sources or wait next era before expanding that far. Which mapsize are you using? You've got plenty of ways to counter that unhappiness.

I am playing on large. Yes, you are right, it is just demotivating having the only one angry from a fresh new city. The very early game is just a little bit more boring right now.
But I think you don't see any need for a change, so this thread can be closed.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I am playing on large. Yes, you are right, it is just demotivating having the only one angry from a fresh new city. The very early game is just a little bit more boring right now.
But I think you don't see any need for a change, so this thread can be closed.

Well, I usually play on large too and never have any problem. Yes, sometimes it takes a bit long on slower gamespeeds to develop a city. Now I have a reason to use those trade caravans and speed up buildings production. And anyway, really, 10 tiles away on a large map is more or less like New York to Denver: isn't it a bit too much for an ancient Era civ?
I don't want to be harsh but I really think that unhappiness can all be sorted out. How much unhappiness from distance did you have?

 

[Slarki]

Yes. It is 3 unhappiness. But combined with all other factors it's already -6. If you don't have a humanitarian leader you probably need 2 hours to make those people happy. For 1 pop, which already feels "too crowded".

 

[Rezca]

Yes. It is 3 unhappiness. But combined with all other factors it's already -6. If you don't have a humanitarian leader you probably need 2 hours to make those people happy. For 1 pop, which already feels "too crowded".
View attachment 393448

Crowding unhappiness is equal to the City size. It's always been like that.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Crowding unhappiness is equal to the City size. It's always been like that.

I wonder, maybe I could lower that for ancient era at least. Doesn't make much sense, although it's obviously there for gameplay reasons.

Edit: or maybe I could make "too crowed" unhappiness tied to era, or not always proportional to city size, or scale it down a bit so that small cities don't get penalized at start. I'll look into it.

 

[Rezca]

I wonder, maybe I could lower that for ancient era at least. Doesn't make much sense, although it's obviously there for gameplay reasons.

Edit: or maybe I could make "too crowed" unhappiness tied to era, or not always proportional to city size, or scale it down a bit so that small cities don't get penalized at start. I'll look into it.

Maybe Crowding unhappiness doesn't kick in until a certain size, like maybe 5 or 6? Penalty starts off small, then increases as it reaches the 20 and 30 sizes perhaps.

 

[Slarki]

Crowding unhappiness is equal to the City size. It's always been like that.

Yes, but I'm fighting here for every point of happiness right at the start
1-2 less unhappiness would unsure that you have some more freedom how you can build at the start.

 

[Arakhor]

I have to say that if your colony is ten tiles away from your capital so early on, I honestly think you're doing something wrong.

 

[Rezca]

I have to say that if your colony is ten tiles away from your capital so early on, I honestly think you're doing something wrong.

Unless the only source of Copper/Horses happens to be that far away. I've had that happen to me so often

 

[aggri1]

I have to say that if your colony is ten tiles away from your capital so early on, I honestly think you're doing something wrong.

I think that it'd depend on the map script also. If you try a Perfect Mongoose script with low sea level, you might end up with large areas of very low-value land, in which case you might need to go further afield to find a nice second-city location which is actually worth building.