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Unique Buildings Elimination Thread

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Mesix, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Seabastian Civ

    Seabastian Civ King

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    608
    I'd say so. +2 gold per city is huge in 1800 BC. Without that its actually pretty lame.
     
  2. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    613
    I dunno. I think the stele is a solid choice for #2, even though I love the paper maker as well. I agree that the pyramids are a shoe in, as they should be.
     
  3. Icywind

    Icywind Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 23
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 6
    Paper Maker 30
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 27
    Wat 23

    Love the Pyramid - it turns Maya into a science machine early in the game. The bonus faith is a plus as well.

    Mud Pyramid Mosque is a decent UB, but I don't always build temples (or culture buildings) everywhere. The remaining UB's outside of possibly Saltrap's Court (Bank) are copies of generic buildings that I would be putting in every town anyway.
     
  4. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,359
    Location:
    Ahch-To
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 21 (-2)
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 6
    Paper Maker 30
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 27
    Wat 24 (+1)

    Today I am voting for the Wat. I like to get social policies, and more :c5culture: equals more social policies (and faster social policies). It is also great to have an extra :c5culture: producing building when playing for a cultural victory. This, and a University is generally a priority building anyway, so the extra :c5culture: is gravy. Getting 4 free Universities with Legalism is also a neat trick.

    I am voting down the Floating Gardens. Is it a good building? Sure. But then all the UB left are good buildings. This one is just not as good as the rest.
     
  5. Rooftrellen

    Rooftrellen King

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    Location:
    Vitória, Brazil
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 21
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 7 (+1)
    Paper Maker 30
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 25 (-2)
    Wat 24

    Doing this one by comparison.

    The Mud Pyramid is free extra culture and faith, particularly culture, since other civs don't get culture from the temple, and, it's free...free. That is important to me because of the bonuses you can add to it. You can get 1 food (2 with the shrine that comes before). You can get 2 happiness. You can get +2 MORE culture. The ways you can make it better go from a decent to awesome building.

    The Stele is nice, but it, in the end, is just 2 extra faith. After you get a religion, it starts to fade. It can't get better. You can't turn it into a powerhouse, and even if you could, it's not cheaper to have than the Mud Pyramid, making it a weaker building in comparison throughout the course of the game.
     
  6. Arilian

    Arilian King

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    662
    Location:
    Hungary
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 21
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 7
    Paper Maker 29 (-1)
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 26 (+1)
    Wat 24


    Stele is a garanteed Panteon/Religion even on deity
    PM means is 6-12 gold at the beginning. That transletes to one lux - it is good, but I am not really impressed.
     
  7. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,359
    Location:
    Ahch-To
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 21
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 7
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 26
    Wat 24

    Corrected the tally for Paper Maker. An up vote is +1 and a down vote is -2.
     
  8. curwen

    curwen Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    84
    Bazaar 12
    Burial Tomb 20
    Floating Gardens 21
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 7
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 26
    Wat 24

    bazaar ... his advantage at deity level is small as the prolem is generaly to have customer.. (but i do not like the arabian civ UU also so ... and yes i think that desert start are bad (defensively mostly ... i have to get honor 2 asap to get a GG to make a fortress to survive ... most of the time i get desert start)
    burial tomb: imo better than for example floating garden (just get a maritime CS for a better effect on the whole civ)
     
  9. duhu

    duhu Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    91
    Bazaar 13
    Burial Tomb 18
    Floating Gardens 21
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 7
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 26
    Wat 24

    Bazaar for the advantage on gold. Burial tomb offers some happiness on a faith building, which isn't as important if your going for faith, and it takes the penalty of giving your opponent double gold if they take the city.
     
  10. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,359
    Location:
    Ahch-To
    I don't really understand the comments people make about the penalty for the Burial Tomb giving your opponent :c5gold:. I suppose this might be a MP concern? In the single player game, I view this as a benefit of attacking Egyptian AI cities. When I play Egypt (or any civ for that matter), I don't factor in losing cities into the equation as it is of minimal concern. If I am losing cities, I have bigger worries than how much :c5gold: my opponent receives for pillaging. I think this would be the same in MP as well. If you are winning, it is not a problem at all. If you are losing, then there are bigger problems to worry about and having a different UB (aside form Walls of Babylon which are already voted off) probably wouldn't have made much of an impact at this point.
     
  11. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,393
    Wait, what?

    Doesn't the MPM do the exact same thing only dozens of turns later for like twice the price and a prerequesite building? I see what you're saying about religion boosters (which could possibly help it), but that possibility doesn't even make these two buildings equal, let alone make the mosque better . . .

    Don't get me wrong, I think the Mosque is cool. Just not THAT cool. I think the developers believed so too, if you look at how weak the rest of the Ethiopian abilities are in balancing their incredible UB.
     
  12. Vopros

    Vopros Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Bazaar 13
    Burial Tomb 18
    Floating Gardens 21
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 5 temples are not very useful building and +2 cultures dont help them
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 14 puppets like build this. Easy gold and happiness.
    Stele 26
    Wat 24
     
  13. Carl5872

    Carl5872 Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2008
    Messages:
    772
    Location:
    Mentor, Ohio
    Bazaar 13
    Burial Tomb 19 (+1)
    Floating Gardens 19 (-2)
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 7
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 13
    Stele 26
    Wat 24

    The burial tomb is one of my favorite. Its low hammers, it gives faith and happiness, and can be spammed in all cities. It also in a way gives money because of no maintenance. Now the 2x gold for enemies conquering a city with it, that is negligible. Human or AI will invade for specific reasons: If you have wonders, if youre close to them, if youre an easy target, if your the leader and they want to stop you, if you culture bomb them, or in the case of Mad Monty, if it's Tuesday. Nobody will say ooh I really want that Podunk town in the tundra to get the 2x gold for taking it.

    Floating gardens are nice, but they depend on having lake tiles around to truly shine. Not saying they're bad, its just with the buildings left, the others are that much better.
     
  14. Gucumatz

    Gucumatz JS, secretly Rod Serling

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,181
    Things get a little tougher now

    Bazaar 13
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 20 (+1) There are few UBs here that truly favour tall empires. The floating Gardens does that - and does that amazingly well. Its a cheap building that comes into play early - and allows you to focus on early hammers in exchange for the extra food.Mud Pyramid Mosque 7
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 14 (Corrected)
    Stele 26
    Wat 22 (-2) I am voting the Wat down today - why you may ask. Well its a good building but I have never really been a fan of it. The culture is nice for a wide-ish empire - I don't know but I just don't find it that game changing. The wait for Legalism strategy to get 4 free Wats seems a little gimmicky to me and I don't know - I just don't like it. Not the best explanation ever for this one but still
     
  15. Rooftrellen

    Rooftrellen King

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2009
    Messages:
    691
    Location:
    Vitória, Brazil
    Like twice the price of hammers but no upkeep cost.

    Religion (or SP's) being able to manipulate a UB to your advantage can be pretty big. Three votes for and two against the wat mentioned the legalism trick, for instance. Obviously some of the love for it comes from how you can potentially manipulate it, not for the straight up building. It's the same thing with temple substitutions, just with the effect instead of how you get it.

    The Stele only has the bonus of extra faith and can go into your first cities for free. You'll get a religion, and you'll likely get the best beliefs, or at least nearly so, but later it merely offsets Ethiopia's need to go tall, which also means they actually have less need for faith later, with fewer cities requiring less faith for the buildings (or missionaries to help the spread).

    The nice thing about a UB is that it lasts the whole game, while no UU can claim that. While an early boost is always worth more than the same late, in the long run, extra culture is worth more than extra faith, extra gold is worth more than extra faith, and the ability to add more effects (even if you choose not to, the choice is there, and having that choice is better than not having it) to a maintenance free building is pretty darn nice.

    Edit: A vote against the Wat while I wrote this mentioned legalism :p
     
  16. Seabastian Civ

    Seabastian Civ King

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    608
    Bazaar 14 (+1) At least as good as the Satrap's court, even though most of the time its only useful for 50 turns after you build it.
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 20
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 5 (-2) Just not strong enough to survive this round, imo. Faith this late doesn't even guarantee a religion, and the added culture doesn't really offset how one best plays Songhai.
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 14
    Stele 26
    Wat 22
     
  17. mintcandy

    mintcandy King

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Messages:
    609
    This statement is technically untrue, at least with games starting in the Ancient era.

    No Unique Building's benefits can last the whole game if the game is started in the Ancient era, because that would mean that the Unique Building's benefit is realized even on Turn 1, which is impossible.

    It would be more accurate to say that a Unique Building's benefit is provided for the rest of the game, once built.

    Still, I can make the same argument for a lot of Unique Units...their benefit is provided for the rest of the game, once built. For example, if one never upgrades a Legion, it has the ability to build (and repair) roads for the rest of the game. The Keshik retains the ability for double experience for the rest of the game, and that same ability is retained even when upgrading the Keshik.

    Now, an even better argument for Unique Buildings versus Unique Units is that most Unique Units don't contribute to empire wide stats, like culture, research, faith, and gold the way that Unique Buildings do.

    Of course, there are SOME exceptions to that rule (the Walls of Babylon is a UB that doesn't contribute to empire level stats and I think Keshik experience contributes double to the generation of Great General Khans). Still, that's not a particular weakness of Unique Units or a particular strength of Unique Buildings as much as it is a statement of the difference between units and buildings in general.
     
  18. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,961
    Location:
    Québec
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 20
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 3
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 14
    Stele 27
    Wat 22

    MPM : Not enough appealing in GnK. Allying cs do a way better job.

    Stele : Because it needs to stay 2nd ahead of Paper Maker :D
     
  19. Dogmouth

    Dogmouth King

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    613
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 20
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 1 (-2)
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 38
    Satrap's Court 14
    Stele 28 (+1)
    Wat 22

    Stele for number 2! You'll never miss out on your pantheon of choice as Ethiopia unless you get incredibly unlucky in a game against the Celts. MPM doesn't guarantee anything. There is a big difference between getting +2Faith, +2C with no tech requirements and getting the same thing much later and at double the cost. The maintenence for the MPM is ok, but no way would I trade 1 GPT for a much later pantheon/religion and 50 early hammers. That's an archer plus 10 extra hammers or 2/3 of a catapult.
     
  20. Awsome Sause

    Awsome Sause Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2012
    Messages:
    68
    Bazaar 14
    Burial Tomb 19
    Floating Gardens 20
    Mud Pyramid Mosque 0
    Paper Maker 28
    Pyramid 39
    Satrap's Court 14
    Stele 28
    Wat 22

    Mud Pyramid Mosque: A good UB but 2 extra faith from temples is not really game changing.

    Pyramid: the pyramid is game changing though as it will let you get the first religion and also boost your science in the early game.
     

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