Unit Balance Patch (Mod)

Do you think (Military) Units and Combat in Civ VI need a Balance Patch or are they OK?

  • They need a complete overhaul/rework actually

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Yes

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Yeah, but just some small changes for Balance

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • Maybe. It's OK actually

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • No, it's perfect as it is

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    19

Bibor

Doomsday Machine
Joined
Jun 6, 2004
Messages
3,049
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
If I was redesigning the combat system, I'd remove the ranged combat system completely. Both from units and cities.

Ranged units would stay in the game, but receive no damage when attacking (compensated for by a weaker attack).

Then, I'd reintroduce first strike (i.e. initiative) into the promotions tree, making it also much more important in the process. This would also make XP-giving buildings like Armories more meaningful. Initiative would make melee units receive less damage when attacking.

The rock-paper-scissor system would work in a way that it would reduce combat damage against certain unit types. For example, a sword would receive only half damage from spearmen attacks, while spearmen would receive only half damage when defending against mounted units.

Finally, I'd add units the ability to move across mountains (with Engineering) to prevent chokepoints. However, units would be unable to embark when coming off a mountain.

I'd go from here and then see if a ranged system can even be used by the AI properly. Or not.
 

UWHabs

Deity
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Messages
4,944
Location
Toronto
Later era units in Civ 6 require more maintenance already. I believe formula is roughly 1 gold per era, with some exceptions.

Also, you could argue that you have enough income that you don't have to worry about unit maintenance... but on the other hand, the more maintenance you pay, even if you're still making money, the less you can spend on purchasing buildings or units or great people or tiles.

I think a big problem is that unit maintenance seems to increase slowly relative to other sources of gold. Sure, in the ancient through about medieval eras, I will sometimes pay attention to unit maintenance costs. But I can honestly not tell you what I spend on unit maintenance in my last domination/modern era game. I think part of the issue is that your army is what, like 20 units at the most? Even at 5 or 6 gpt per unit, you're talking about maybe 100 gold per turn? Yeah, that's a decent amount, but if I have 20 trade routes, Triangular Trade alone is worth 80 gold, virtually paying for my entire army. Not even including the potentially 20 or 30 gold per trade route itself you can get up to in some games. I know that in almost every game I play, by the time Levee en Masse (?) comes around saving me 2 gold per unit, I rarely ever feel it's worthwhile. If getting +1 movement makes me take a city a turn sooner, that's worth a lot more than whatever little gold I'm saving at the time. Unit costs should probably scale up at least 2x where they are, so that if an ancient unit has a support cost of 1, by the medieval era a musketman is up to about 8 or 10, and a modern tank is like 20. It still won't make a difference if you're pulling in 1000+ gold per turn, but it would at least be something. A musketman at 4 and a tank at 6 right now is just not the right scale for that.


Now, granted, resources generally matter more, and I think that's another piece that needs a look in any unit balance mod. Ideally it would be nice to consume a resource to heal, but I don't think that's possible with just modding tools. That way at least you have some support costs as you go. It still seems weird to me that I can build a swordsman and it costs 20 iron, it can go off to battle in a foreign land, have 99% of its unit completely wiped out, but then can simply sit there and magically heal back up to full strength without needing any city or population nearby. It just makes it too easy to build up your army early, and then never worry about resources again. And with careful use of the resource discount card for upgrade, you can even build your whole army up for half price too, just making it too easy to roll out.

Basically, there needs to be larger costs for building and maintaining an army. If the modern world was like Civ, I think it would cost like 50$ a year to fuel an aircraft carrier.
 

Zegangani

King
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
823
If the modern world was like Civ, I think it would cost like 50$ a year to fuel an aircraft carrier.
Nice One! :lol:

And good Points on Gold Maintenance.
Now, granted, resources generally matter more, and I think that's another piece that needs a look in any unit balance mod. Ideally it would be nice to consume a resource to heal, but I don't think that's possible with just modding tools. That way at least you have some support costs as you go. It still seems weird to me that I can build a swordsman and it costs 20 iron, it can go off to battle in a foreign land, have 99% of its unit completely wiped out, but then can simply sit there and magically heal back up to full strength without needing any city or population nearby. It just makes it too easy to build up your army early, and then never worry about resources again. And with careful use of the resource discount card for upgrade, you can even build your whole army up for half price too, just making it too easy to roll out.
Really good Idea! According to the CivWiki, Units that require a Strategic resource do Not heal if the Player doesn't have continuous access to the resource anymore, but I rarely have that Issue (I guess AI does :cringe:), so I never noticed anything. Though, as you've stated, the issue rather lies in the lack of resource consumption when healing. And It's actually pretty moddable, requires some work to prevent Bugs/Possible Issues but it can be fixed.

But instead of making the healing of Units that require a strategic resource entirely dependent on access to a resource, I think it would be better for balance and AI to make the lack of a resource just reduce the healing rate, or maybe make it a necessity for human Players only, and AI would just get reduced healing rate. (also moddable)

Besides, Movement and Fighting could also consume a resource. Like only if a Unit gets active in a Turn, it will consume 1 of a resource in that Turn. There is already a Mod for that btw: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1702672878

Also completely agree on the upgrade Cards. Professional Army, Retinues and Force Modernization Policies are too OP on their own, and they should be at 25% max. But the biggest problem with them IMO, is that I don't think the AI ever uses them. Given that they are just temporary Abilities, the human Player will always know how to utilize them but AI not. Perhaps the AI should get the Effects of them for free (halfed at 25% not 50%), so that AI can at least maintain its standing Army and stay competetive a bit longer.

Great Ideas @UWHabs, will see what I can do about them, especially the resource healing Idea (currently only conserned with CO2 production).
 
Last edited:

Leyrann

Deity
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
4,371
Location
Netherlands
@Leyrann
You're saying these units take the pain from moving units through roadless rough terrain at 1 - 2 squares a turn?
One balloon/drone per unit chained or just in the middle like a general giving aura bonus around?
I realize medics heal, but supply convoys i really never built them.
Might give them a try at the session i am playing now...though i become too lethargic to go around smacking the other AI civs...in a way I like CIV VI for making war not as glorious and needed, but I remember being nuked:nuke: often in the original Civilization:lol:

Not quite what I meant. Yes, getting bonus movement speed (from a Great General or Supply Convoy) can indeed help your army move quicker, but the trick with siege units is more specific. Normally, siege units cannot move and shoot on the same turn, except for the Rocket Artillery unit, or if they have the Expert Crew promotion. However, if a siege unit, for any reason, starts the turn with more than 2 movement (because of Logistics, a nearby Great General, or a Supply Convoy), it can move and shoot, even if it has fewer than 2 movement points remaining when it shoots, it just needs to not be completely out of movement points. Using this trick makes conquering cities significantly easier because it's a major boost to the effective mobility of siege units, if you also want to actually shoot with them.

And yes, with balloons/drones, the strategy is to build one, attach it to one of your siege units, and keep the others within one tile. Then, you just blast a city from out of city strike range.

Really good Idea! According to the CivWiki, Units that require a Strategic resource do Not heal if the Player doesn't have continuous access to the resource anymore, but I rarely have that Issue (I guess AI does :cringe:), so I never noticed anything.

I'll do you one better: Units that have a building cost but not a per-turn upkeep cost can continue healing even if you have just a single copy of a resource. For example, you buy 20 iron from the AI, build a swordsman, then buy one more iron. So long as you have that one iron, your swordsman will keep healing.
 

Deggial

Emperor
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
1,400
Location
Germany
Just a quick and by far not exhaustive “holly day” note from the after-breakfast-table:
  • Anti-cav needs to cast a ZoC vs cavalry to stop their zipping around other troops
  • Modern SAM needs to cover a larger area of defense than early anti-air
  • Machine guns need a higher bonus when defending against melee attacks (and possibly a little bit lower attack value) to make them the “hold the line” units they actually were (are).
 

aieeegrunt

Emperor
Joined
Jan 8, 2021
Messages
1,120
Not quite what I meant. Yes, getting bonus movement speed (from a Great General or Supply Convoy) can indeed help your army move quicker, but the trick with siege units is more specific. Normally, siege units cannot move and shoot on the same turn, except for the Rocket Artillery unit, or if they have the Expert Crew promotion. However, if a siege unit, for any reason, starts the turn with more than 2 movement (because of Logistics, a nearby Great General, or a Supply Convoy), it can move and shoot, even if it has fewer than 2 movement points remaining when it shoots, it just needs to not be completely out of movement points. Using this trick makes conquering cities significantly easier because it's a major boost to the effective mobility of siege units, if you also want to actually shoot with them.

And yes, with balloons/drones, the strategy is to build one, attach it to one of your siege units, and keep the others within one tile. Then, you just blast a city from out of city strike range.



I'll do you one better: Units that have a building cost but not a per-turn upkeep cost can continue healing even if you have just a single copy of a resource. For example, you buy 20 iron from the AI, build a swordsman, then buy one more iron. So long as you have that one iron, your swordsman will keep healing.

The more “advanced” resource system introduced more problems in order to solve…what was the problem it was meant to solve again?

More complex mechanics does not mean better mechanics. Often they are worse, and 110% they will involve more micro.
 

Leyrann

Deity
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
4,371
Location
Netherlands
The more “advanced” resource system introduced more problems in order to solve…what was the problem it was meant to solve again?

More complex mechanics does not mean better mechanics. Often they are worse, and 110% they will involve more micro.

The problem they sought to solve was that copies of a strategic resource beyond the second did not feel impactful, and could even be annoying because you'd want to build something else on the tile.
 

aieeegrunt

Emperor
Joined
Jan 8, 2021
Messages
1,120
The problem they sought to solve was that copies of a strategic resource beyond the second did not feel impactful, and could even be annoying because you'd want to build something else on the tile.

The problem here is the hilariously terrible mechanic of not being able to build on top of a revealed resource.

The whole resource points thing just added pointless complexity and busywork.
 

Leyrann

Deity
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
4,371
Location
Netherlands
The problem here is the hilariously terrible mechanic of not being able to build on top of a revealed resource.

The whole resource points thing just added pointless complexity and busywork.

That is only part of the problem they sought to resolve. You completely ignore the (imo bigger) part where extra copies of a resource felt unimpactful.
 
Top Bottom