Unit Cost Formula

[Gary Childress]

I'm trying to come up with a fair unit cost system, something like a set number of shields cost per unit trait. I'm wondering what would be a good cost in shields for the following:

Shields per move
Shields per transport capacity
Shields per operational range
Shields per attack point
Shields per defense point
Shields per extra hit point
Shields per bombard strength point
Shields per bombard range
Shields per bombard rate of fire
Shields per air defense strength point

Shields for zone of control capability
Shields for foot unit capability
Shields for blitz capability
Shields for all terrain as roads capability
Shields for radar capability
Shields for amphibious capability
Shields for invisible capability
Shields for stealth capability
Shields for detect invisible capability
Shields for lethal land bombard capability
Shields for lethal sea bombard capability

So in other words, to determine the shield cost of a unit I would add together the shields for attack, defense, movement etc. and the sum total would equal the shield cost of the unit. The more capabilities a unit has and the more powerful a unit is, the more it will cost in shields. Some traits are surely more valuable than others. For instance an extra hit point should probably cost more than an extra defense or attack point. And blitz capability alone surely doubles or tripples the effectiveness of a unit much more so than a single extra attack or defense point.

I'm wondering what would be fair costs of the categories above.

Any ideas?

 

[Ozymandias]

Any ideas?

Yes: list them in what you believe the order of importance to be (more then one per position is fine). Assign the lowest one shield each, and extrapolate upward, applying what you know of an ability's utility in-game.

I'd be more precise but much of this is going to come down to judgment calls - what's worth more, amphib or paradrop?

Happy Approximating,

Oz

 

[Gary Childress]

Excellent idea! Now I just need to figure out what is important and what isn't.

I say bombard strength points should be least important and maybe blitz or invisible most important. Attack and Defense strength would be maybe just above bombard strength. So far, then, it would look something like this:

bombard strength
defense / attack
"
"
"
"
"
blitz
invisible

Of course then that might make submarines incredibly expensive whereas historically they were considered the "poor man's" naval weapon. Hmmm...


EDIT: Actually I think blitz should probably maybe = (cost of attack points) x (number of moves) And rate of fire mighty simply be multiplied by the cost of the bombardment points.

EDIT2: Maybe I should have a "base price" of different types of units and then add the cost of abilities to it. For instance a battleship might have a base price greater than a destroyer and then add the cost of the various abilities to that price?

EDIT3: Since a regular unit in the mod will be produced with 4 hit points, I'm thinking hitpoints should maybe be multiplied by 1/4 total cost of attack + defense? So a unit with 4 extra hitpoints would be double the price of a unit with the same attack and defense which has only the standard 4 hitpoints.

 

[Vuldacon]

Yes, Hit Points should have high Value...and Bombardment Units should also have high Value, especially if they have Lethal Bombardment. But this applies to Human Players especially, not the AI.

You will have to take into consideration your Game and what units have the Most Importance in it. There is no Panacea Chart to apply Costs to Units because there is a Plethora of Factors to consider. Best to Evaluate all Units available with some type of "Formula" and then Readjust again using other Game factors that are unique to your Game.
Game play factors and when a Unit is available with its strengths should be considered.

Really, as much as we would all like to have some "Formula" for quickly adjusting Unit Settings, there are far too many factors to consider in a game to make any simple Chart.
Change one setting and you can create extreme changes in the game...same is true for Unit Costs. The AI is also a Factor to consider with costs vs unit strengths and availability.

I am certain you will find that it is necessary to apply many "Formulas" in order to decide Unit Costs.

Good Luck finding ANY simple formula that you can use in general and IF you do find it.... it will merely be a Start for applying unit settings in any Game

 

[Gary Childress]

OK. I have an alternative.

The alternative would be that every unit of the same level costs the same across the board for all civilizations. In other words a 1st generation fighter plane would cost the same for Germany as it would for the US and every other country. However, all 1st generation fighter planes won't be equal in combat performance. Some will be better or worse than others. A 2nd generation fighter plane would cost a little bit more than a 1st generation, however, once again all civs would pay the same for 2nd generation fighters.

So now I'm wondering which system is better? Should I base shield cost on performance characteristics or should I have a flat shield cost across the board for all units of the same advancement?

Opinions?

 

[RedAlert]

I think something to think about when ranking certain abilities is: how would the AI rank these abilities?

For example, take two units. Otherwise identical in every way (stats, cost, etc.), one unit is flagged as, say, Invisible, while the other is flagged with 'Treats all terrain as roads'. Which unit will the AI build: first? more often than the other? In this way, you can get an idea of what abilities are worth more than others.

This method, of course, is by no means exhaustive. As Vuldacon has mentioned there are innumerable factors involved in why the AI builds what it does, and I can imagine situations where the AI would be inclined to build a unit with one flag, and situations where the AI would be more inclined to build a unit with another. And also, obviously, some abilities can not really be compared in this way, such as one pertaining to aircraft and another pertaining to sea units.

Well, that's something you could look into.

 

[Ozymandias]

The alternative would be that every unit of the same level costs the same across the board for all civilizations. In other words a 1st generation fighter plane would cost the same for Germany as it would for the US and every other country. However, all 1st generation fighter planes won't be equal in combat performance. Some will be better or worse than others. A 2nd generation fighter plane would cost a little bit more than a 1st generation, however, once again all civs would pay the same for 2nd generation fighters.

This is actually close to the approach I take.

Getting back to a formula, however, I've been mulling it over.

For land units, the basics are AF/DF/MF. Now, the AI is actually smart enough to "know" that {total DF} = {DF * HP}. So I'd start by trying 1 shield per AF, TOTAL DF, and MP. Double MP cost if any terrrain is ignored and triple it for ATAR. For Blitz, try {total AF} = {AF x MP}. For ZOC add 1 * combat value.

Now, Air, Artillery and Ships get a bit complicated. You should probably go through the grueling mechanics of how things work:

AA Formula Discussed.

Air Combat.

Anti-Air Defense.

Chance to retreat (limited utility).

A study of Army units.

Bombardment damage (limited utility).

Civinator's approach to making land artillery work.

Naval air defence vs. bombers.

Who defends in an attack?

And finally, Steph's interesting take on varius values (with a humble comment by Yours Truly )

Have fun!

Best,

Oz

 

[Vuldacon]

Probably the best way to set Unit Cost is to set all units of the same type with the same cost regardless of their individual strengths then go over your game and set all Unit Costs again based on the individual unit abilities and strengths.
It is helpful to remember that Unit Cost is nothing more than another part of Good Game Play when making a Game. Are we setting a unit with high cost because it is strong with great abilities? If so, we are really limiting how many of them can be built so it is Game Play we are actually considering when we place a Cost to a Unit.

Make a Chart with unit abilities for each Unit type and assign a cost factor. You can then apply the Ability Chart costs to the Units. This really is a way of assigning costs to Limit the number of Units with superior abilities. Movement, Blitz, Defense, Bombardment (especially Lethal) and Hit Points are "biggies" and when coupled with strong Offence, more.

Then go over all units again and consider the AI Factors concerning Unit Abilities and Costs...this "Headache" differs from Human Players and if not considered, it can ruin Game Play. Question What and When the AI will build a Unit and How does Cost affect the AI compared to Unit Abilities.

Good Game Play is the Bottom Line for setting Unit Costs and this requires applying Human AND AI Factors. While some factors can be applied across the board to all Units concerning Cost, Game Play has to be considered to apply a Unit cost setting. Game Play is based on the particular Game and how the Author wants the Game to Play so Unit Cost is Very Personal and differs from Game to Game. This is the main Reason why there is no Panacea answer to Unit Cost...

I say, Start by applying Unit Costs equally for each type then adjust the Units again according to all other Factors that make the Unit Valuable to the Human Player as well as the AI, keeping Game Play factors for your Game in mind as the foremost factor.

It is important to have some Units that Unbalance the Game as far as Strength to keep strategy necessary. Good Game Factors present "problems" then provide ways to solve the problems for fun. Remember that many low cost units can be built that will defeat the low numbered, high cost Superior Units. Millions of Army Ants will Kill an Elephant you know The "Strongest Units" are those with High Attack and Very High Defense coupled with Many Moves, Hit Points, Blitz and Lethal Bombardment. The Flip side to this is the low cost inferior units that can be built in high numbers and will eventually destroy the fewer High Cost Superior Units.

When we set Unit Costs we are programing how we want our game to play, Not merely trying to apply a "Realistic" Cost to the Unit in Reality. The Best Unit Costs are those that seem to match our "Reality" as well as the reality of the game itself while continuing to provide the Game Play we desire.

After setting Unit Costs or any unit setting, the Only Good way to know if it is "correct" (meaning allows Game Play as you intend) is to Play your Game Many times to verify the Human and AI Play factors according to your applied settings.