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Unit disbandment

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by GodDamnItAlexander, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Hello all! First time poster here (but definitely not completely new to the game or Vox Populi).

    First of all I would like to start off by giving tons of praise to the mod and the community. Who knows, this mod may one day be the next Dota 2 of the Civ series :).

    Anyways, I had an idea for an adjustment when the game forces you to disband units once you reach a certain negative income. I'm no historian, but if I understand correctly in the ancient world when a nations army weren't getting their salary, some would choose to defect and become their own independent force.
    So here is my adjustment:
    In the early game (barbarians)
    Instead of your units disbanding, they permanently become barbarians and start doing barbarian things to your lands and neighbors. The only way to get them back is by you getting positive GPT again.
    This mechanic would be very useful if the unit that defected is highly promoted. It also somewhat resembles civil war if the player tries to kill the marauding unit.
    As for getting the unit back, to make things more interesting; maybe have it so the turns of positive GPT required are in proportion to the ones of negative? A short time of -GPT would still give you a great chance of getting them back, but too long a time and the unit(s) deserted would probably rebel against you (and everyone else) for the rest of the game.

    As the game goes later on (mercenaries)

    A defecting unit would first become a barbarian, and if he survives a set number of turns (which you can still get him back in this time slot), he will then have a chance of either:
    1) staying a barbarian (and move to the nearest encampment and get upgraded over the eras like a regular barbarian)
    2) join a neighboring city state
    3) join a neighboring Civ (depending on the current era, perhaps which Civ to join should also be influenced by their GPT relative to others {higher = better}, not just the distance)

    Would love your guys feedback :crazyeye:.
     
    NikMuazHakim likes this.
  2. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    How about they just defect to barbarian and start to pillage your lands. If you can't pay them in gold, you can pay them in women and lands!
     
    NikMuazHakim likes this.
  3. peterw1987

    peterw1987 Prince

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    Is unit disbanding a thing in VP? I never see it happen even if my gold in negative for almost 10-20 turn.
     
  4. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Yeah but then you remove the chance of the player getting them back (if I understood you correctly). Imagine permanently losing one of your most veteran soldiers. I think my way adds depth to the game.

    I've never had it happen to me either, but according to the wikia it can happen. http://civ-5-cbp.wikia.com/wiki/Gold
     
  5. Emufarmers

    Emufarmers Chieftain

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    You don't really have veteran units in the early game, and by the mid game you're not usually going to have a negative income, so I don't know if it would really play out that way.

    Note that that's just copied from http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_(currency)_(Civ5)
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Its a very cool idea, I'd love to see it happen. IDK if it ever will happen though, unit disbands are so rare. Maybe it happens to the AI occasionally?
     
  7. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

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    If you're in a situation where you're losing enough income to have to disband, you're in a Very Bad Position. Your infrastructure is likely underdeveloped, you're falling behind on science, and you can't field an army. Under those circumstances, would it be fun to have to face down your own troops turning against you, especially since you can't have your own army to defend yourself?

    Compare to the existing mechanic of rebels spawning when your empire's happiness is low. That is unfortunate, and rebels can cause a lot of damage. But rebellion generally happens when you overextend, meaning that you have resources elsewhere to compensate. In particular, you would likely have a large army that you can call home to deal with the rebellion, so fighting the rebels can be a fun part of getting your empire back on track. But if you're in desperate poverty, you don't have a way to deal with rebels, so I can't see the experience being anything but frustrating.

    Also, I can't expect that players would realistically let barbarians roam free and ransack their lands while they wait to get their income back in the green so they can convert them back. That seems like such an infrequent situation that I don't see it being worth the trouble to code a way to keep track of which barbarians used to be friendlies.
     
  8. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I have two problems with this:

    It's way too easy to go into negative income. We already get hit hard with the science loss as well as auto disband of units. (I would be interested to see the numbers of when this happens, seems random after going below -10 I think?)

    The second problem is that I am 99% sure that the AI is immune to this. I have seen AI with below -20 income with massive armies. I don't want to create more AI and player differences.
     
  9. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    I think you guys are underestimating negative income. Sure, for the player that's just looking to sim city for the next round of turns, it's absolutely unacceptable.
    On the other hand, it allows a player to have a much bigger army than he should actually be able to have. In that way Civ is very flexible.
    Example: You are playing as Genghis Khan against Pocatello. He is claiming lots of land with his cities. So you mass produce a huge army to take him on. You know you're going to have casualties, so what's the harm in -5, -10, or even -20 GPT? Yes, you lose science for those turns. But if your risk pays off, you will take some of his cities. The long game repercussions of this will totally outweigh the few turns of lost science.
     
  10. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Why would I ever disband a unit?
    Isn't there enough CS willing to give a home to it? Workers, maybe, but I rarely overdo.
     
  11. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    You do get some gold when disbanding in friendly territory. If you are purging your low level units and upgrading the higher level units it can be useful.

    The small amount of influence you get from a city state is hardly worth it most of the time. I usual only do this when I want to help a city state defend against an aggressor.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    If you went this route I would just have the unit convert permanently. Disbandment is permanent so why not this. It's quick and clean
     
  13. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I've never had a unit disband, so I'm against this because it seems superfluous.

    If it affects AIs, then it's just a nerf to AIs and I'm REALLY against it.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    This is a rough way to put it, but I kinda agree. Either you use your excess units for crippling another neighbor (in case it isn't enough to continue your conquesrs) either you send them to please states (I think the extra influence worths more than the gold, and a stronger ally is even better). I'd only disband as a real last resort in case of bankruptcy. I think I have sold buildings just a couple of times, but never units.
     
  15. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    Right now the mechanic is (correct me if I'm wrong) that if you hit -5 GPT your units will eventually disband. Now, it would really suck if one of your more promoted units would randomly get selected and deleted. I'm trying to pitch that instead of the unit permanently being gone from the game, the player would have a chance of getting him back (at a potential cost).
    Sure, you could send excess units to city states, or sell some buildings or simply not even be in -GPT to begin with! But that's not the point. The point is to adjust the current disbandment mechanic and try to add some depth to it. And if you don't want to risk a unit turning barbarian, you can just manually delete him yourself.

    And no, obviously it shouldn't affect AI. That would nerf them way too hard.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This feature is going to be pretty complicated to play with, and likely complex to make, but its not going to come up very often. I cannot remember the last time I had a unit disband, it seems that for most players its a very rare occurrence
     
  17. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    I've never had it happen to me either, but I think that's more of a testament that VP still has some ways to go in terms of balance, since no one is willing to go into -GPT at the moment (except the AI).
    I had a game against a neighboring Authority Japan, and when he finally took me out around turn 100, his army was probably ten times bigger than mine. He was at around -70 GPT if I recall correctly. So it goes to show that negative income can be a good strategy, it's just no one is using it right now.
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think its a bad idea overall, not some unexplored strategy. If I had -70 GPT wouldn't I be getting -70 science each turn, which would be most if not all of my science? I don't see how that can work out long term

    I would guess that the AI has different rules for units disbanding than human players do
     
  19. Zanteogo

    Zanteogo King

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    I have seen AI with heavy negative income but they always seems to be able to have full armies. I would be interested to know how this works (for the player as well as the AI) I know I have dipped into heavy negative income and have somehow not lost units, but have been in the -10 range and have had unit disband. There seems to be a random factor attached to it.
     
  20. GodDamnItAlexander

    GodDamnItAlexander Warlord

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    It's not supposed to work for the long term. See below
     

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