Unit list

[T_F]

Dwarves definitely need a UU Catapult, but you can't call it a cannon since by definition all cannons use gunpowder.
I think a catapult with stronger city bombard damage is a good Dwarf UU. (Name?)

I think everybody should get upgradable captains. Not sure about the berserkers. Maybe if we give them another name, we can use it for all civs. Just a unit that has higher attack than defense, something like that.

Give them a strong-ish offense, but make the main selling point a catapult-esque collateral damage ability. Make them kind of like living catapults that can't bombard, and I think you get the basic idea behind berserkers.
I think that the idea of 'berserker' is a uniquely Evil concept (sending in guys that are guaranteed to die isn't something any respectable good guy would do), so I don't think we need to change the name.

Rangers I would really see as recon units, not archers. They may use bows but should not be better than regular archers, otherwise what's the point in having those. They should not have hidden nationality I think, especially not if they are also invisisble. Way to unbalanced imho.

Yeah, on second thought that really is overpowered.

 

[xmen510]

I think a catapult with stronger city bombard damage is a good Dwarf UU. (Name?)

Gully Dwarf Slinger!

 

[T_F]

Like, it actually fires dwarves?
*ftong* AAAAAAAAAAA-

 

[xmen510]

DragonLance referrence there.

In any of the battles I have read about the dwarves thus far, siege engines have never been mentioned as far as I can tell. It wouldn't hurt to let them have them, but perhaps we could give them say;

Sappers: They have the Ranged Bombardment that archers can have in other mods. Make them a Seige unit, but style them as a Dwarven Axemen Type Unit. This way it would deffinately be a "Unique" Unit for them.

 

[Sengir]

Berserkers should indeed require evil (that is, IMHO neutral men can also build them if they have turned to evil).

Gunpowder (or anything related) is a big no in my book, only exception is the 'bomb' Saruman created. If we put that in, it should be a world-unit (there can be only one, ever).

 

[Berenthor]

I agree on the berserker type of unit although a unit which has a higher attack and does collatoral damage while attacking can be for every civ (but I don't know about the name).
I like the dwarven sapper idea. But I agree, no gunpowder at all. I would maybe even keep the "bomb" of Saruman out completely.

 

[Sengir]

Yeah, the bomb is still an 'if' for me.

Didn't notice the sappers before, guess I simply read over them. How does ranged bombardment work? Got a link. I like the sound of them though.

 

[Berenthor]

The ranged bombardment is in the DCM mod for normal BtS. It will be a lot of work to integrate that so I'm not sure about them. Maybe we should keep that out for now (merging that with FFH2 will be a pain I think).

 

[T_F]

Sappers and their ranged bombardment are great, but you can't call it 'ranged bombardment' because it isn't. Should we give them some kind of collateral damage ability, or does that just not make sense?

I kinda like the idea of the bomb being a world unit, but IDC if we leave it out completely.

 

[xmen510]

Berenthor said:

I like that idea. As far as the flying is concerned: don't make them airplane like. This will make it very limited to "air missions". In FFH2 they have dragons and griffon units which just move over impassable terrain (although we should think about oceans) and ignore movement costs. These thinks should really be balanced properly but this will work quite well I think. "Flying" or "Winged" could be a promotion which gives these properties to a unit maybe or just make it racial (dragons have it or something).

It is a good idea. Have flying units just the same as all others except give them (and only them, don't let others get it with promotions) a special "Winged" promotion that allows them to pass over both Water and Impassable Terrain.

 

[Sengir]

Yeup, that's a good idea and easy to implement (I think, would have to look at the code to know for sure). Will have to think about movement on water though. I don't know whether the AI will handle that properly..... I have seen griffons in FFH move on water though so it should work if we want them to fly across water.

 

[T_F]

Yeah, that'll work. Just make sure the unit graphics aren't in contact with the ground - in FFH gryphons look like they're standing on water.

 

[xmen510]

We should make it so that the only units the Shadow can actually build are Orc, Uruk, Troll, Seige, and the Ringwraiths. The other (Men) units only came from subjugation of other lands.

T_F

Sappers and their ranged bombardment are great, but you can't call it 'ranged bombardment' because it isn't. Should we give them some kind of collateral damage ability, or does that just not make sense?

That is a good point. Perhaps a collateral damage ability would be better for the Sapper unit.

OR:

Have them only able to reduce defenses and then at the end (only after there is no defense bonus left fot the city) they could have a chance with each attack to destroy City Walls, High Walls (if they are put in), Castles, Fortresses etc. (going from walls up). A small chance for each attack, but each attack of that sort causes damage to the unit at that point.

 

[T_F]

We should make it so that the only units the Shadow can actually build are Orc, Uruk, Troll, Seige, and the Ringwraiths. The other (Men) units only came from subjugation of other lands.

That's probably good. Maybe the Shadow can by some process extract other units from other Evil-aligned civs?
Maybe all Evil-aligned civs somehow count as partial vassals to the Shadow, and there's some system that lets the Shadow request units from them. Either that, or the Shadow gains some of the build options of each other Evil civ (so most, if not all, other civs start Good or Neutral).

OR:

Have them only able to reduce defenses and then at the end (only after there is no defense bonus left fot the city) they could have a chance with each attack to destroy City Walls, High Walls (if they are put in), Castles, Fortresses etc. (going from walls up). A small chance for each attack, but each attack of that sort causes damage to the unit at that point.

I like it. I think it should go from top down, because otherwise you have a building that requires Walls without actually having Walls.
Plus it makes the unit unique instead of being an improved catapult analog.

 

[xmen510]

I chose the way I did to represent that the Walls would be the first destroyed. You would then need to rebuild the walls if you want to build anything else.

 

[T_F]

Ah, that makes sense.

 

[Berenthor]

For the colateral damage after defenses are gone, that is not in standard BtS or FFH2. It is in the Dales Combat Mod which makes all these kind of things possible, but I wouldn't start with merging another mod into this one, definetly not in the beginning. I would make sappers cause collatoral damage or be able to reduce defenses or both.

I like the idea about the shadow. Another possibility is that we give the shadow access to civs which have this partial vassalship with it. Mechanic wise I'm not sure how to do this now.

 

[xmen510]

We could always just give them a majorly upgraded Axmen or something. It doesn't have to be a seige weapon, which they didn't really use on the stories anyway.

 

[Elda King]

Everything is great, except the Saruman's bomb. It's not a real bomb in the book, only an "exploding fire", a spell of Saruman.

Sappers are great. After all, there are no cannons in canon. Rangers really should not be archers, and stealth in forests would be great (thought there should be versions for other terrains, like hills - the Rangers of the North did very well outside forests, while the Rangers of Ithilien were focused in forests and fields).

 

[T_F]

Maybe when you build a Ranger you get a promotion option for Forest Stealth or Hill Stealth.