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Unit maintenance still needs 'fixing'...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by mattpilot, Dec 19, 2010.

  1. mattpilot

    mattpilot Warlord

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    Love the new patch - played a few games and find the AI is much much MUCH better and the game is more enjoyable. Also happy they finally fixed the mod browser for me (it used to go blank after 10 secs).


    But i still think the vanilla unit maintenance is way out of whack come 'end-game' times. In the modern era i end up paying 8gp/unit (prince difficulty). And it increases at 0.05 a turn (at turn 450 on a standard paced game). The unit maintenance costs are so high, the City states that i gift units to end up disbanding them (or the boogy man eats em, i can't tell) because, i assume, they can't afford them. Never noticed how CS in the early gamne have 3-4 units, but late game they have 1, if that?


    Same with other AI players - While i'm happy the AI uses its units better and builds more diverse stuff, he only has a handful of units. I declared war on the second biggest civ (~20 cities) and after killing 15 units he asks for peace because apparently he ran out ... at least his boarders are undefended and i'm unopposed 'cleaing up' his cities. Thats not 'fun'. the AI, like me, should be able to afford more units.


    Problem, in part, is that the money making improvements stop coming after the industrial era, and all u can do to off set the rising costs, plus somehow finance all the new buildings that only cost money, is to get more gold-focused cities. So IMO the only option is to lower the upkeep multiplier (luckily i know how to do that) to be a bit less insane.

    So, am i the only one with this concern?
     
  2. RonMar

    RonMar Warlord

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    No. You aren't the only one. The unit maintance creeps up, and you suddenly realize (especially after late golden ages) that your per turn surplus has turned into a deficit. This happens even if you are limiting your military just to keep a defensive force for deterrence.

    This is a major, easily overlooked cause of mid and late turn economic difficulties.
     
  3. Shadow717

    Shadow717 Warlord

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    May 14, 2010
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    I think the incresing unit maintanence is a terrible system. I liked the civ3 system of X amount of units allowed based on your government and city sizes, but we don't have governments so that would work anymore. Unfortunately I can't think of any good way to implement it
     
  4. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    There's a mod that makes all maintenance flat.

    That is so much better.
     
  5. CurseUppl

    CurseUppl The bureaucracy expands.

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    Yeah, I certainly think it's horse sh** that unit maintenance is based on an arbitrary formula.

    Should be a bloody fixed rate set for each unit. Depresses the hell out of me seeing my unit maintenance rise for no reason with the same number of units.
     
  6. snoochems

    snoochems Prince

    Joined:
    May 25, 2004
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    The way it is implemented now blows chunks. And costs keep increasing??

    I have to start deleting my workers and scouts as I need to pay for a new Modern Armor or Stealth Bomber. You know, because a scout requires as much maintenance as a Stealth Bomber.
     
  7. GenericPlayer

    GenericPlayer Warlord

    Joined:
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    You are not the only one complaining about this. I had raised this issue several times in the forums until I was blue in the face.

    I don't want to repeat what has already been said, but speaking as someone who enjoys playing in the late game (even after victory), the game is set up in such a way that after the year 2000 you feel like you are that guy who hasn't left after last call and the bouncers are shoving towards the door.

    Some of my issues with the maintenance problem:

    1- Removing roads in newly acquired territory: Because the worker is the only unit that can remove a road, you will have to create a worker and pay unit maintenance while he is removing roads. For example, if you have 5 units of railroad track you need to remove, thats a 15 turn job. At times I have had to pay anywhere from 20-50 gpt for a worker, you can see how even for 15 turns its not worth it for removing 5 units of railroad that cost me 10 gpt a turn. Assuming I delete the workers after the job is done, I am not seeing savings until 30-75 turns later.

    2- The AI can operate in the red without consequences. In fact its a bigger problem for you because the AI can still field increasing number of troops, while at the same time you can't sell bonus luxuries to the AI or extort cash from it because it has no money.

    3- The devs call it inflation but this is not true. If this was inflation then that trading post which makes me 2 gpt in the ancient era would be making a whole lot more in the modern era!

    Edit: Oh and the Simple Unit Maintenance Mod does not work. I have started several Prince difficulty games with this mod and the unit maintenance cost keeps going up and up. The mod author even acknowledged on the 2k forums that there were hidden values that increased the maintenance cost beyond the control of this mod.
     
  8. mattpilot

    mattpilot Warlord

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    @GenericPlayer

    Yea, the Simple Unit maintence does not work because he set the multiplier to 1. That infact makes it worse than the original game :).

    You gotta modify both the multiplier & the exponent divisor.... the 'magic' combo that i found, that works pretty good IMO, is this:



    It about halfs the rate. You still start at 1 gp/unit in the beginning, but near the year 2000 you are only at around 4gpt - and beyond that it doesn't increase that fast. One of the hidden factors is the amount of units you have. Simply by owning more units, your basic /per unit expense also increases. Meh.
     
  9. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Unit maintenance is NOt too high, it is too obscure and complicated.

    Unit maintenance should be like building maintenance
    Warrior=1 gpt
    GDR=15 gpt
    etc.

    They could even have fractional maintenance that is all added together before it is charged
    ie Warrior=0.4 gpt
    GDR=14.6 gpt
     
  10. ApocalypseMao

    ApocalypseMao Chieftain

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    That's exactly the problem. They uses inflation with unit maintenance without including inflation with anything else, including income. Building maintenance doesn't inflate. Why? Why is maintaining units more expensive over time but not buildings? Of course, income doesn't inflate either, which makes no sense. Inflation isn't something that can be selectively applied, it's all or nothing. :crazyeye:
     
  11. mattpilot

    mattpilot Warlord

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    @krikkitone -

    you don't play much in the modern era, or even beyond that, do you?



    Unit maintenance is indeed fine up until the industrial area. You can increase your gold via markets, banks, stock exchange, but after that, your ability to 'inflate' your income dries up and thats the point where unit maintenance is no longer in line with income.

    You either expand/conquer cities and turn them all into lean gold-focused cities, or you end up selling your units or buildings cause you can't afford them anymore.

    Its nice having such a huge selection of units you can build in the modern area, unfortunately u can only afford a few before u run out of funds :p.



    Nevertheless, i would also much prefer fixed GPT that varies with units.. as you said.. warrior 1gp, GDR 10.
     
  12. joyous_gard

    joyous_gard Prince

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    I always liked that "random" event in Civ IV where it said "Reduce your inflation 10 or 25%" I always checked 25% if I had themoney.

    Yeah, the money runs out after stock exchange. Good observation regarding industrial era. I am always bummed when my main cities finish building stock exchange and I am only making +50 gpt. I know it will be a real poor man's game after that.
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Most cities are meant to be gold focused.

    The 1UPT idea means that you should have very few production cities, because you have very few units.

    There aren't "science cities" in the sense of a particular set of tile improvements (except perhaps Farms in the National College City)

    Cities themselves are designed to be generally self defending, so military is only useful for taking cities or clashing with someone elses military.


    However, if they had fixed costs, it would be a LOT easier to balance it through the ages.
     
  14. MAntoninus

    MAntoninus Chieftain

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    This is particularly evident with Air units. Get a few bombers and choppers out there and watch your GPT bleed out.
     
  15. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    I found a way around it (not really :lol:) pre-patch, not sure how good it'll work post-patch. See no reason why it shouldn't.

    Anyway when going for diplo, cultural or science (peaceful in other words), I just disbanded all but 1-2 units, got insane amount of money (modern era, when unit maintenance is high as mentioned) per turn because of basically no units. And when and if there was a threat, I'd just buy all the units I need and more so just in case. When threat is dealt with, disband them again. :lol: Some policies and wonders that lowers the cost of buying troops made it very very easy. In the end I had enough money to buy myself diplo victory. :lol:

    It worked like a charm, which is ridiculous! :lol::lol::lol:

    Yes, I'd love that! If someone finally creates a mod (working one), please let me know people. :lol:
     
  16. GenericPlayer

    GenericPlayer Warlord

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    Relying on cities to defend themselves is not practical. Of course you need units for defense and deterrence.

    Also the strategy of just buying and disbanding units as needed is not entirely practical, and I am curious if this can work on above-prince difficulties.

    I myself don't build that many units, but I do hold on to them and develop their xp whenever possible, so that when the AI does come at me with his hordes my high xp units can handle them.
     
  17. mattpilot

    mattpilot Warlord

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    Well i uploaded my 'mod' to the browser under the name 'better unit upkeep' .. if you search for 'upkeep' it will only show 4 results, so easy enough to do.

    Perhaps others will find it useful - unlike the simple unit maintenance mod, this one is tested and actually works :p.
     
  18. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    It was extremely practical. That was the entire point, exactly why I mentioned it. Not because it was fun, but because it was extremely practical, which is why it is ridiculous. Maybe you should try it before claiming of it's practicalness...

    You missed one detail though. I don't rely on cities to defend themselves, I buy units to defend them when need arises. If you have 5 cities, you can instantly pop out 5 units, which is a lot in this game. Late game you can just buy a few GDR's which are quite cheap. You also forgot that I keep 1-2 units in strategic places as the speed bumps just in case.

    Also this strategy is for modern era >.

    True that it may not work that well on above prince levels, but that wasn't my point now was it?
     
  19. Stilgar08

    Stilgar08 Emperor

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    It may work, sickfak, but it doesn't sound like the fun thing to do. And wasn't it the case that they stated you're going to hang on to your units for the entire game, upgrade them and benefit from their gained XPs throughout the ages... Somethings wrong with this :hmm:
     
  20. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    That was exactly the point. The game fails in the unit maintenance department so bad that this kind of "strategy" becomes practical, which is ridiculous.
     

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