Unit Preview and Poll: Byzantine Cataphract

[mrtn]

I'm a leftist.

 

[aaminion00]

I say go with the one on the far left. It looks most unique and would be the best Byzantine UU.

After you're done with the Cataphract, do you think you could make that one well-known pikeman divison (v-something or another, I forgot what it was called)?

That way, we'd have:

Knight - Cataphract
Caravel - Dromon
Pikeman - V-somethingoranother

 

[Yoda Power]

aaminion- you mean Varangi(u?)an Guard? That wouls be pretty cool too.

 

[Xen]

I disagree- the Varangian Guard would best be the replacement for medieval infantry, and that the pike replacement be the descendent of the legions, the Skoutatoi

 

[Xen]

also there is news at least two versions will be made, one Utah, and then once it is complete, kryten will use a head to cut-n-paste another version with the other helmet on

 

[aaminion00]

The only problem with the Byzantines and flavor units is as follows:


What would their ancient age units be?

Roman units? Or would we try and guess what legions and so forth would have looked like if the Byzantine culture which developed later on had existed from the start.

 

[Yoda Power]

since the core of the Byzantine empire was Greece, I would give the Byzantines the same flavor units as the Greeks.

 

[Xen]

ahh yes- why didnt I think of it before0 this entire thing is just ripe for the big C3C mod!

the best answer is to base ancient Byzantine units on amixture of greece, and Rome...

though what is more interesting to me is what if those ancient med civs were still around- I would love to see modern infantry units walking around is Corinthian style hemets

 

[aaminion00]

Originally posted by Xen
ahh yes- why didnt I think of it before0 this entire thing is just ripe for the big C3C mod!

the best answer is to base ancient Byzantine units on amixture of greece, and Rome...

though what is more interesting to me is what if those ancient med civs were still around- I would love to see modern infantry units walking around is Corinthian style hemets

I completely agree! Some say, give the Roman an Italian infantry flavor unit to replace the infantry.

I say, make an infantry with a centurion helmet and call him "Legion Infantry" and have him replace the infantry for the Romans.

I think that if the Roman culture had remained intact then their infantry wouldn't look like the modern-day Italian infantry.

 

[Yoda Power]

Originally posted by Xen
though what is more interesting to me is what if those ancient med civs were still around- I would love to see modern infantry units walking around is Corinthian style hemets

Even if there still was a Roman empire I doubt they would be dressed like Legoinaries. Modern military does´nt like 18th century grenadiers at all.

 

[Xen]

why not? modern helmets, such as riot helmets are directlly based on the Corinthian helmet, all it need is a crest, and not be transparent in the cheeks- not to mention modern armies utilize armour- and If the roman empire survived why wouldnt they have looked to traditional patterns of dress to make it?- that is assuming that they gave it up at all, somthing doubtful for me to belive, as at least the officer core woul dhave wanted to look imposing styled like Hector, Romulus, or Achilles...

 

[aaminion00]

Something like this just begs for a Cut 'N' Paste job in my humble opinion:

Edit: It would be cool to have a different uniform so as to completely distinguish it from the standard infantry.

 

[Xen]

I always just pictured a civ3 Centurion with a gun

EDIT- like my current avatar in looks, or at least the helmet...

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

I like the one on the right more.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I like the one on the left, but the scale is so small it makes it a little difficult to tell the difference.

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Xen
I disagree- the Varangian Guard would best be the replacement for medieval infantry, and that the pike replacement be the descendent of the legions, the Skoutatoi

The Varangian Guard were made up of axe-armed Varangians -- Vikings who had not gone west, but rather east, down the Eurasian riverways (esssentially founding Russia along the way).

Given that the "medieval infantry" is a "Firaxis hallucination", this unit should simply be the berserker without amphibious ability. BTW axe-armed Varangians (although, granted, not the imperial guard) were run utterly down; shred to ribbons; etc; when confonted by Roger the Norman's cavalry during his invasion of southern Italy in the late 11th century.

-Oz

 

[PCHighway]

I disagree. The Byzantine Empire largely incorporated ‘barbaros’ mercenary cavalry, such as Hunnic\Scythian cavalry, who used the advent of the Stirrup. At the time largely unknown to western civilization. Indeed from my understanding, the Byzantines first use of their own effective, non-mercenary cavalry was a type of heavily armored horse archer. Which eventually evolved into the Cataphract. Cataphracts, from my understanding actually used a bow, spear (lance), and short-sword.

Also, the Byzantines conscripted, especially in the Belisarius times, many Persian\modern day Turkey; men. A majority of whom fought in important battles, and as soldiers in the Byzantines conquests. Syrians, Persian, Scythians, all these were famed for their cavalry, and all these were at one point used in Byzantine military movements.

From what I understand, popular fashion simply started to transform the image of the dress\gear of the cavalry as the Byzantine Empires views shifted to the East. So, my point is, the Byzantine cavalry in it’s early Empire and Greek militia\ soldiers in the later Empire would most likely have worn the head gear of the Roman times.

*cough* Anyway, Kryten is going to copy\paste another version you say? The more the merrier.

Really though, they all look good, just a matter of taste.

 

[Xen]

as far as Cataphracts go that description is close, but originally, they were simply heavey spear armed cavalry based of a combination of Persio-Parthisn, and Gothic-Sarmatian influences (and little ol' taste of the heavey cavalry of the successor states of Alexander perhaps,though thats a bit early...) it was contact with the huns that prompted the Eastern Empire to reform its cavalry into the multi-task force it was in the time of Belisarius, and it seems that they were so proficient in thire jobs, that Belisarius could leave the supporting troop- even the main Infantry in camp, and take out only the cataphracts- and mabey some horse troops mre adept at archery, and win the day...

also, when incorperating troops from Asia minor,theyre thoruolly hellinized- Greek influences had been in the area for ages, and europen stock strock migrating in for even longer periods...

 

[Xen]

also considering Kryten will making the loser, i think the one on the right should be made, and the Byzantine cut-n-pasted, as a good all around maed knight is needed, and we can wait till conquest for a necissarymid-late period Byzant cataphract...

 

[Packer-Backer]

The left is the best in my opinion and the polls, wow I really like to blab about the polls! But I think the middle one should be an upgrade of the horseman, or ancient cavalry in C3C, before it upgrades to a knights. The left should be Byzantines and the right could also be a generic cataphract except just to make them different and to include these three GREAT animations take away one attack point and add a defensive point or something.

It's just a thought because I love them all!