Unit Request: Numidian Horsemen

[Costa e Silva]

Well, "Numidian Horsemen" should be the UU for Carthage, and i don't know why firaxis do that spearmen that i even don't know if that really existed...
So i am doing this request: A Numidian Horseman.

They weren't simple mercenaries... I prefer to say that they were payed soldiers, because they fight for Carthage for a long period, and were part of the "nation".

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I think we need a Numidian Horseman as well.

 

[Costa e Silva]

Thank you Dom. Let us made the Rise of Rome more dificult...

 

[The Last Conformist]

TAM uses the Numidian Mercenary graphics for the Libyan heavy infantry fielded by the Carthaginians.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Didn't the Numidians actually turn against Carthage and fight for Rome at Zama?

 

[Costa e Silva]

The Battle of Zama has Numidians in the two sides...
Cipio made an aliance with a one of the 13 numidians princes, called Masinissa.
Masinissa evoque the four tribes less favored by Hannibal, and put the numidian Cavalry skils on Roman service...
And this was exactly the way that Cipio asecure his victory.
Hannibal allways said that Carthage will loose by itself, because didn't have the "nation" spirit...
And that was the point, barca family made the carthaginian Spain by it's own expensures. Nothing could show better how Carthage society works...

 

[Costa e Silva]

The numidians made unbalance this battle, because the advantage of Hannibal was allways the Cavalry. Numidians are faster and skiller than romans, and their horses are infinite better...

 

[Costa e Silva]

The Masinissa act wasn't something that show numidians "mercenary" side, but something that show Carthage's internal conflits, and the inability to work together in times of war...
The greatest traitor was a carthaginian senator, that made all his life to "stop" Barca's ambition to overrule rome...

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Yes, I just went and checked out a website and saw that there were Numidians on both sides. Rome, IIRC, always was deficient in the cavalry area except in this battle and because of that, it was going to be up to the armies and Hannibal was pretty sure that in that case, he would lose.

 

[Xen]

okay, Numidian cavalry should NOT be the carthaginian UU!

it SHOULD be Poenic (Punic) Cavalry- the actual citizens of carthage

this core of medium-heavey (when comparing to other horsemen of the times) cavalry was the real reason why hannibal was so succesful in Italy- the gauls brought along were mere fodder, the spainards were his main infantry, along with large cores of Libyan, and Greek foot troops, and numidian light cavalry, along with what few elephants he had, but in the end, it was the citizens of carthage who were the real effective tool against (think about it, moreal wise, it makes sense since they were the onyl one in the army to actually hold a grude against the romans)

 

[Louis XXIV]

I made a request for Numidian Cavalry a really long time ago. (Both here and at CDG)

The good news is Kryten is working on it. The bad news is Kryten has to finish other stuff first. I bug him occassionally to do it, but I'm patiently waiting until Christmas before I will even need the unit. Maybe Kryten will see this thread sometime soon

My goal for the unit is 2-fold. First off, I plan to make a mod where every civ gets 2 uus and a Wonder. Carthage gets both Numidian Cavalry and Libyan Mercenaries (Civ3's Numidian Mercenaries are clearly Libyan, and, if it wasn't for the fact that "Libyan Mercenaries" sounds an awful lot like a terrorist group, that would be their name).

My other idea is a bit more complicated. I plan to make massive changes to the Rise of Rome Conquest. Rome will get Velites, Carthage will get Baleric Slingers while still keeping their "Libyan Mercenaries". Now the next part is where Numidians come into play. A "Numidian Horses" resource will be added, which allows anyone who has access to them to build Numidian Cavalry. These units are probably among the best in the game (for power, speed, and cost). Carthage obviously starts with the resources, but Rome can feel free to capture them and "recruit" Numidian allies to help defeat Carthage.

Numidian Cavalry was Hannibal's favorite weapon in the second Punic War. They were far superior to the Roman's cavalry which was, to put it midly, very, very bad . Their unique fighting style was simple. They would ride to the enemy, getting as close as possible. When they get close, they release a shower of Javelins, and quickly turn around a run away before they can be chased. Then, they regroup and begin another attack, hitting with the same manuver.

EDIT: Xen, do you have any info about them?

I know what you say, but, like it or not, Carthage had its military strenght because of its Mercenaries. They could allow it to have the manpower somewhat close to Rome, and fight almost as effectively.

 

[Xen]

I find my exact source, the best I can do on short term notice is provide this link, thd a quote from the army section of it-

It was, however, the mounted arm of the Carthaginian army that was decidedly superior to its Roman counterpart. The javelin-armed Numidians were far and away the finest light cavalry in the western world. Those superb horsemen provided Carthage the margin of victory time and again. Heavy cavalry, in the form of Libyan-Phoenician horsemen, though few in numbers, provided shock action to complement the fire of the Numidians.

it dosent go very indepth I'm afraid and paints the numidian cavalry in a superior light, but I assure you, in Italy, it was the phonecian citizens of carthage who were proving to be the most valuble of the carthaginian troops

anyway, here is the link-

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/index.htm

 

[Louis XXIV]

That's a great site, btw (I think I pretty much know that line by heart from when I was trying to find the history about Civ3's "Numidian Mercenaries")

I think, even with Civ3's historical inacuracies, misleading facts, and incomplete pictures, Civ3 is a great history game because it caused me to learn about the history behind it.

 

[Xen]

yup, bu tofr me, I was already interested in this stuff before it, it has just helpedme branch out into other areas (like Byzantium )

 

[Costa e Silva]

Xen: There was an elite troop of punic citzens that fight in side of all generals. This officers were tuff, but were just few per army...
Numidians were the strategical ace of Carthage, because they opose exactly the week point of Roman Forces...
Roman Cavalry only became good after Carthage's fall...
Some kind of "steal technology"...

Even Roman Legions weren't that good in the time of 2nd Punic War. Was Scipio that by analizing Hannibal troops, that modified the way of roman fight style, and this is the reason for Scipio be so important, he was the man of vision, without him, Rome probably did win in one way or another... But probably would take four more centuries...

I'm glad to hear that Kriten don't give up this babe.
Thank you Sun King, let us make some "peacefull" pression over the "civ-ancient-times-master"... Hehe

Kriten: I know you can hear us! Please hurry up!

Just Kiding...

 

[Xen]

but the thing wewe are NOT talking a mere officer core- were talking a FULL CAVALRY WING!

as for the Romans- it was by adpating to soem SPANISH (not carthaginian) forms fo fighting that the legions were thus improved, but bizarlly, the swords still look more like the hellenic swoards then they do the spanish scutum...

 

[Costa e Silva]

You right about the swords: Helenic, not Iberic.
But the Shield Wall Formation with variations, and the open movements were learned from Iberians, that fight in that way because of Punic influences...
The only 100% Iberian technic of fight was the quick atack of the celtiberians, that fight with one, even two, scutums (falcata) and no shield... They don't use any kind of armour, and Hannibal used they like a light-infantry...

About this Cavalry Wing, i don't remember that, but i could be wrong... I read two historical romances of Hannibal, but was a long time ago...

 

[Costa e Silva]

If this cavalry was important, i'm in favor to do it too!
In the most of time, they fight with spear or sword?
Because someone could made some "adaptation" in one of the existents ancient cavalries...

 

[Xen]

A)the Romans did NOT learn the sheild wall from the Iberians- the sheild it self the scutum, was adopted from the Samnites (it is possible that it cam from the celts, but lets be honest here, which do you think the Romans would have adopted from- some smelly barbarians, or the most hated enemy of Rome until carthage came along...)

as for the formations, the genera, tactics had been around for millenia (come on, it dosent take that much to raise your sheild over your head when arrows are coming at you...), the Romans are unique in regimenting it into a set response

also, a note about swoards- i was searching the web for images of spanish armour, as I have seen not only depictions, but an actual suit of the stuff made from bronze before, I didnt find it, but I did learn that the Scutum was adopted from the spaimsh- but I have been confusing it with sword the spanish themselves prefered on average, the falcata

also, one more note- in the Caesarian era times, yhe Spanish themselves made anEXCELLENT medium cavalry mercenary force- even Caesar had some spainards,along with numidians, and even celtic cavalry in his forces at various times in his career

 

[billesarius]

Yes, scutum = shield. Spanish sword was adopted by the Romans at least by the 2nd Macedonian war (ended 197 bc). Livy says it made quite the impression on the Macedonian troops from its "fearful wounds". I am certain that Scipio Africanus (elder) adopted it when he went to Spain about 209.
Carthagenian horse made up half of Hannibal's cavalry at Zama, the rest being Numidian. I do not recall that he had any Carthagenian horse in Italy although Livy and Polybius repeatedly mention Numidian, Spanish and Gallic.
The Carthagenian's tended to keep the citizens at home to guard against disaffected Libyans. They couldn't have had many citizen horse at any rate. The city had a population of about 700,000 so 100,000 adult males. Allow for slaves and Libyan serfs so maybe 70000 citizens. Using Roman and Athenian population figures as models there were perhaps 7,000 citizens in the cavalry class and that would have included everyone from 18-60. Clearly half would have been reserve only. Point being if you had a population base of 3500 potential front line cavalry and dangers at home, that citizen cavalry would be used sparingly on foreign fields. Romans/Italians fyi had something like 700,000 infantry and 60000 cavalry reserves to draw on.