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Units and Research Costs (0.40 forward)

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Strategy & Tips' started by PekkaR, May 22, 2009.

  1. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Master_Hugian wrote an interesting post comparing the research costs for various unit lines at different tiers. (Units and Research Cost) Later we had a major research cost revamp though. I've updated his post with new numbers below.

    Research costs seem affected by game speed, difficulty and map size. I picked Normal, Emperor and Standard size for this comparison. Consider these values primarily in relation to each other.

    See 2nd post for side by side comparison and comments.

    Melee

    Spoiler :
    (Tier 2) Axeman/Swordsman (1076)
    Crafting (179) + Mining (299) + Bronze Working (598)

    (Tier 3) Champion (7355) - 6279
    [Bronze Working* (1076)] + Smelting (2392) + Iron Working (3887)

    (Tier 4) Phalanx (39509) - 32154
    [Iron Working* (7355)] + Engineering* (6739) + Mithril Working (11063) + Mithril Weapons (14352)

    (Tier 4) Immortal (56886) - 49531
    [Iron Working* (7355)] + Engineering* (6739) + Mithril Working (11063)
    Theology* (17377) + Divine Essence (14352)

    ____________

    Engineering (6918) - 6739
    [Crafting (179)] + Masonry (209) + Construction (598)
    Agriculture (119) + Ancient Chants (119) + Education (418) + Writing (568) + Mathematics (1419) + Engineering (3289)

    Theology (18033) - 17377
    [Agriculture (119)] + [Ancient Chants (119)] + [Education (418)] + Code of Laws (478)
    Mysticism (299) + Philosophy (448) + Priesthood (1196) + Religious Law (3588) + Theology (11362)


    Archery

    Spoiler :

    (Tier 2) Archer (926)
    Crafting (179) + Mining (299) + Archery (448)

    (Tier 3) Longbowman (5112) - 4186
    [Archery* (926)] + Bronze Working (598) + Bowyers (3588)

    (Tier 4) Marksman (19371) - 14259
    [Bowyers* (5112)] + Military Strategy* (2598) + Precision (11661)

    (Tier 4) Arquebus (22167) - 21091
    [Bronze Working* (1076)] + Smelting (2392) + Iron Working (3887)
    Engineering* (6739) + Blasting Powder (8073)

    (Tier 4) Crossbowman (22017) - 16905
    [Bowyers* (5112)] + Engineering* (6739) + Machinery (10166)

    _____________

    Military Strategy (3674) - 2598
    Ancient Chants (119) + Mysticism (299) + Philosophy (448)
    [Crafting (179)] + [Mining (299)] + [Bronze Working (598)]
    Agriculture (119) + Education (418) + Warfate (478) + Military Strategy (717)

    Engineering (6918) - 6739
    [Crafting (179)] + Masonry (209) + Construction (598)
    Agriculture (119) + Ancient Chants (119) + Education (418) + Writing (568) + Mathematics (1419) + Engineering (3289)


    Mounted

    Spoiler :


    (Tier 2) Horseman (926)
    Agriculture (119) + Animal Husbandry (269) + Horseback Riding (538)

    (Tier 3) Chariot (3689) - 2763
    [Horseback Riding* (926)] + Ancient Chants (119) + Education (418) + Writing (568) + Trade (672) + Crafting (179) + Masonry (209) + Construction (598)

    (Tier 3) Horse Archer (3048) - 2122
    [Horseback Riding* (926)] + Crafting (179) + Mining (299) + Archery (448) + Stirrups (1196)

    (Tier 4) Knight (19344) - 18239 (from Chariots) - 17940 (from Horse Archers)
    [Horseback Riding* (926)] + [Crafting (179)] + [Mining (299)]¤ + Bronze Working (598) + Smelting (2392) + Iron Working (3887) + Warhorses (11063)

    ¤: Only required to research from Chariots


    Recon

    Spoiler :

    (Tier 2) Hunter (806)
    Exploration (119) + Hunting (687)

    (Tier 3) Assassin (3190) - 2392
    [Hunting* (806)] + Poison (2392)

    (Tier 3) Ranger (3885) - 3079
    [Hunting* (806)] + Agriculture (119) + Animal Husbandry (269) + Animal Handling (2691)

    (Tier 4) Beastmaster (17220) - 13335 (from Rangers)
    [Animal Handling* (3885)] + Crafting (179) + Mining (299) + Bronze Working (598) + Smelting (2392) + Iron Working (3887) + Feral Bond (3289) + Animal Mastery (2691)

    (Tier 4) Shadow (15242) - 15242 (from Assassins)
    Council of Esus¤ (4824) + Mathematics (1419) + Code of Laws (478) + Currency (1345) + Taxation (2392) + Guilds (4784)

    _______________

    ¤: Assumes you have to put it in your cities yourself through reserching Deception.

    Deception (4824)
    Ancient Chants (119) + Mysticism (299) + Philosophy (448) + Way of the Wicked (418)
    Agriculture (119) + Education (418) + Writing (568) + Fishing (239) + Sailing (478) + Trade (672) + Deception (1046)


    Arcane

    Spoiler :

    (Tier 2) Adept (956)
    Ancient Chants (119) + Mysticism (299) + Knowledge of the Ether (538)

    (Tier 3) Mage (6007) - 5051
    [Knowledge of the Ether* (956)] + Agriculture (119) + Education (418) + Writing (568) + Alteration¤ (956) + Sorcery (2990)

    (Tier 4) Archmage (24545) - 18538
    [Sorcery* (6007)] + Arcane Lore (5382) + Strength of Will (13156)

    ________

    ¤ or Divination/Elementalism/Necromancy


    Master_Hugian never got around to adding discipline and other religious units. Hopefully I will. Also Berserkers.
     
  2. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

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    Side by side comparison by total research required.

    Tier 2
    Spoiler :

    Axeman/Swordsman 1076
    Adept 956
    Archer 926
    Horseman 926
    Hunter 806


    Tier 3
    Spoiler :

    Champion 7355
    Mage 6007
    Longbowman 5112
    Ranger 3885
    Chariot 3689
    Assassin 3190
    Horse Archer 3048


    Tier 4
    Spoiler :

    Immortal 56886
    Phalanx 39509
    Archmage 24545
    Arquebus 22167
    Crossbowmen 22017
    Marksman 19371
    Knight 19344
    Beastmaster 17220
    Shadow 15242


    Comments

    Melee:
    Melee units are often considered the default thing your army consists of. They're the most expensive to research but the research path always includes access to metals for their weapon upgrades. The same technologies are also requirements for many others and there are several good opportunities to switch to other research paths and unit types. Bronze Working is never wasted in the long run.
    Immortals seem really really hard to reach but you should understand that Divine Essence is priced as an extra to consider when you're getting mithril upgrades and High Priests anyway. Same for the Phalanx tech, just going Mithril Working to upgrade your Champions (for example) is good too.

    Archery:
    Archery line has medium costs to research. If Mining shows no copper, Archery tech looks immediately more attractive for early defense. The lumber mills and 50% chopping production bonus may also suit your start. T3 requires Bronze Working anyway so going Axemen/Swordsmen first is ok too. Alternatively your ex-Warrior Archers could develop to Horse Archers.
    Archery units are well suited for defensive strikes and first strike upgrades, so it's good to have some along with your offensive stacks if you have access to the units. Longbowmen and Crossbowmen get weapon upgrades, Marksmen get their namesake promotion without the city attack penalty of assassins. The later tiers end up viable for massed offense even if you aren't playing Ljosalfar. Arquebusiers are the only T4 unit that isn't limited to 4 per nation. Note their synergy with the earlier tiers of the Archery line isn't great, for example teching them after Champions is more viable. Getting both them and Crossbowmen works nicely though.

    Mounted:
    Medium to cheaply priced tech-wise, Mounted units are best suited for offense or perhaps aggressive defense. Unless you're Kuriotates, they won't have defensive bonuses from terrain and you'll need specific resources (usually horses) to build any Horsemen at all. Hippus get horses from their palace, but others normally go for other T2 units first.
    At T3 these units really shine. Horse Archers are very fast to research! Stirrups itself is a dead end tech though, so make sure you take advantage of them while there's a good window of opportunity and your neighbors remain unprepared. Alternatively, Chariots can get weapon upgrades and their research path consists mostly of good economy techs. Chariots with or after Bronze Working should still reach the battlefront clearly ahead of Champions.
    Civilization choice matters a lot when considering fast Mounted offense or perhaps hit and run raiding. Beyond Kuriotates and Hippus, Malakim and Svartalfar can always rely on fielding their Horse Archer replacements (on camels and felines respectively) because they don't require finding resources.

    Recon:
    Recon line is cheapest to gain access to overall, but also consists of dedicated techs you'd probably ignore otherwise unless planning to get druids. Recon units are strong in absence of metals, and fastest after Mounted. They can defend your lands or take you all the way to the gates of enemy cities, but someone else should siege them or pillage the surrounding countryside.
    Hunters, Rangers and Beastmasters are the basic Recon progression. Assassins are high utility and quickly reached but tied to a dead end tech. Shadows don't have any special research synergy here but can be combined with any kind of army. If Esus spreads to your lands for free and you're already up to Code of Laws and/or Writing anyway, they're an even cheaper T4 unit to research and the path goes through economy techs.

    Arcane:
    After Adepts, Arcane units become a fairly expensive research subject but they can do lots of different things for you depending on your preferred mana nodes. Adepts are usually best at supplementing other units while Mages more often manage on their own or with a little support. Archmages open lots of funny options.
     
  3. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

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    reserved, just in case
     
  4. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Very nice work here. :goodjob: Mind if I use put this on the FF Wiki?
     
  5. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

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    Sure. Wiki format ftw. :)
     
  6. Sephi

    Sephi Deity

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    Keep in mind that Tech costs in FF are different ;)
     
  7. Redeyes

    Redeyes Chieftain

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    The Shadow shares no requirement with the assassin and can be built directly when you have the requirements for, the "from Assassins"-line is redundant.

    Good job anyway, this summary greatly supports my theory that Basium would be really kickass if supplied with Guilds. Angels of Death don't require esus, are 11/9 + improved by metal, invisble, marksmen which looks quite kickass for a mere 10k economy research :lol:
     
  8. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Yep, and a few units are different as well... It'll make a good base to work with though. :lol:
     
  9. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

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    I decided to leave it because Master_Hugian was probably thinking about the cost of promoting experienced Assassins to Shadows. Astute readers will of course notice that the total and promotion costs are the same, like you did. :p

    That's what I meant in the recon comments when I said "Shadows don't have any special research synergy here but can be combined with any kind of army."

    The Basium theory sounds fun. I've never tried Mercurians but I'll keep that in mind when I finally get around to it. ;)
     
  10. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    I think Hunting tech could stand to lose 33% of its cost. Animal Handling looks about right but Poisons also looks a little too expensive.

    Can we get some numbers for disciple/religion units? The ones I'm particularly interested in are those that can act as large parts of your army. So, Stygs, Crusaders, diseased corpses.
     
  11. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

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    You're welcome to discuss the balance of course. I'll just point out that Kael already posted in the previous thread saying that he's pretty happy about how these techs line up so changes are unlikely. The last research cost adjustments were about pacing the early game better (worked great IMO) and making end game techs require more work. The relationships between unit techs stayed pretty much the same.

    My own main point was keeping this stuff in mind while forming strategies rather than seeking adjustment. :)

    I won't add them up today but hopefully soon. The promotion lines aren't as well formed for religious units and I'm not sure if I should split their tiers according to rough research costs instead. Simple attack/defense strength doesn't really indicate tiers though it's a tempting way to look at them too.

    Would you consider Diseased Corpses T2? Their minimum research is clearly more than e.g. Soldier of Kilmorph and their strength is comparable to T3 if a priest casts Cure Disease on them. Priesthood is an extra tech though. They promote (only) to Eidolons (T4) I think.

    Radiant Guards come very late but I guess they're T2 just because they promote to Champions (and Rathas). They're only built for the Sun 2 anyway.

    All the units from Fanaticism are T3 though Crusaders don't apparently promote to anything.

    Are Nightwatch T2? They come from Bowyers tech with T3 Longbowmen but promote to Assassins and Shadowriders. (Not straight to Shadows as my faulty memory suggested.) Guess they must be T2 despite T3-like strength, just very expensive research.

    Adding these and the rest could make the comparisons pretty messy.
     
  12. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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    Pekka,

    Any chance you can post a link to the earlier thread? This looks neat, very nice work!

    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  13. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Tiers are not hard and fast, I prefer to categorise by a subjective viewing of their position in the tech tree and strength. Diseased Corpses could be Tier 2.5 unmodified or Tier 3 with Healed. Can they use Mithril weapons? RGs are 2.5 along with most Priests - Str 5 with a nice spell.

    Most Nightwatch are going to be generated by the Undercouncil - they're an excellent unit for 25 gold. Like Mercenaries they're something of an oddity.

    Just for comparison, I'd consider Horse Archers Tier 2.5. They're certainly not from the same Tier 3 as mithril chariots.
     
  14. PekkaR

    PekkaR Chieftain

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  15. Ribusprissin

    Ribusprissin Warlord

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    Ah yes Horse Archers -- when my warrior eats a really good basket of apples, it's time to beeline Stirrups.
     
  16. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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