Unitstats

[Ploeperpengel]

sorry, I must have spaced out while reading your post.

Am I the only one who feels that this is turning into a two man convo?

No you're not. Seems because we're the only ones present so far
Other opinions would be good yes.

I just had another idea. We can use the upgradetechs provided by JP to decide when units could be made available. For this we should make clear what should be the basic equipment for each unit. And then make that upgrade tech a prereq. I would prefer this to having promotions or even new models for all this units. They're already really many of them. We also could rename those techs to certain tactic techs then.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I like all of your ideas so far guys

Im a little confused by your last post though ploe. could you explain that in a different way?

 

[DutchJunkie]

I summarized the warhammer weapons list. So we can determine the bonusses once and for all!

Missile Weapons will follow shortly (and armour etcetera too )

Close Combat Weapons list:
Hand Weapon
- No special rules
Great Weapon
- WH: +2strength, requires two hands, strikes last
- CIV: strength bonus (40%), no first strike chance
Flail
- WH: +2 strength bonus in first turn of combat, requires two hands
- CIV: strength bonus (20%)
Morning Star
- WH: +1 strength bonus in first turn of combat
- CIV: strength bonus (10%)
Halberd
- WH: +1 strength bonus, requires two hands
- CIV: strength bonus (20%)
Spear (infantry)
- WH: fight in two ranks
- CIV: ???
Spears (cavalry)
- WH: +1 strength bonus in first turn when charging
- CIV: strength bonus (10%) when attacking
Lance
- WH: +2 strength bonus in first turn when charging
- CIV: strength bonus (20%) when attacking
Pistol (in hand-to-hand combat)
- WH: +1 attack (strength 4 armour piercing in first turn of combat)
- CIV: ???


Missile Weapons list:
All units with shooting weapons have the ability to ‘stand and shoot’ when attacked and can shoot from a distance. This must be represented as a first strike when the square is attacked and when the unit is attacking.

Shortbow
- WH: 16 inch, strength 3
- CIV: no bombardment
Bow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3
- CIV: 1 square bombardment
Longbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 3
- CIV: 1 square bombardment and some bonus ??? over bow
Crossbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 4
- CIV: 1 square bombardment
Repeater Crossbow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3, 2x multiple shots
- CIV: 1 square bombardment, 2 times
Sling
- WH: 18 inch, strength 3, 2x multiple shots if enemy within 9 inch
- CIV: no bombardment, 2x first strike
Javelin:
- WH: 8 inch, strength as user
- CIV: ???
Throwing Star/Knife
- WH: 6 inch, strength as user
- CIV: ???
Throwing Axe
- WH: 6 inch, strength as user +1
- CIV: ???
Handgun
- WH: 24 inch, strength 4, move-or-fire, armour piercing
- CIV: 1 square bombardment, ???
Pistol
- WH: 8 inch, strength 4, armour piercing
- CIV:???

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Pistols could ignore defence bonuses.

spear could get city defence bonuses, and bonuses vs cavalry

Javelin:
no bombardment, +5% strength

Throwing Star/Knife
no bombardment, +5% strength

Throwing Axe
no bombardment, +10% strength

 

[Duke van Frost]

I wouldn´t give bombardment ability to "normal" units, this should be only for siegeweapons IMO.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

yeh true, give archers the normal city defence and hill defence bonuses accordingly. eg

Shortbow
- WH: 16 inch, strength 3
- CIV: +5% city defence bonus
Bow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3
- CIV: +15% city defence bonus
Longbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 3
- CIV:+25% city defence bonus
Crossbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 4
- CIV: +25% city defence bonus
Repeater Crossbow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3, 2x multiple shots
- CIV: +25% city defence bonus
Sling
- WH: 18 inch, strength 3, 2x multiple shots if enemy within 9 inch
- CIV: +5% city defence bonus
Javelin:
- WH: 8 inch, strength as user
- CIV: No city defence, +5% stength
Throwing Star/Knife
- WH: 6 inch, strength as user
- CIV: No city defence, +5% stength
Throwing Axe
- WH: 6 inch, strength as user +1
- CIV: No city defence, +10% stength
Handgun
- WH: 24 inch, strength 4, move-or-fire, armour piercing
- CIV: +30% city defence bonus, ignores defence bonuses, ???
Pistol
- WH: 8 inch, strength 4, armour piercing
- CIV: +20% city defence bonus, ignores defence bonuses

 

[seZereth]

Ok, i am undecided about bombardment, because an alternative for that would be firststrikes relative to the inchesnumber

Furthermore, i think its a good idea to give the "units based on one type" but with a different weapon one base strenght (for example the empire militias) and everyone a bonus depending on the weapon and armor it has ( thats what the tabletop does in my opinion) perhaps using from build on given promotions (like the elven promotion or something) to add different boni to different units, making it possible to upgrade these by techs (better armor and weapons) not by exp.

and give cavalry a bonus against archers, perhaps ignoring firststrikes or better strenght bonus versus archers. and withdrawel for the light cavalrys.

which leads me to a point, where large steps in unit strenght arent that necessary if you give a big bonus versus different unitclasses or "promotions" (weaponclasses).

making units buildable shouldnt depend on the era but on the buildings (coming by techs) you have.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

The cavalry advantage against Ranged weapons can easily be reflected by immunity to firststrikes and I think firststrikes is what archers should get besides citydefense.
I know no vannila unit which has any bonus less than 10% and I guess 5% is just like nothing but I'll wait for Olleus to give his 2 cents on this. Not much time now the game's starting soon

 

[Ploeperpengel]

No promotions for this please we already have so many units with the adequate weaponry made! Swordsmen should fight with swords visible and nothing else. Or if you find a way to trigger the switch between early and late artdefines via promotion I'm fine with this idea. This way we can have a basic militia which can upgrade but only if we can have at least to more alternative artdefs so that militia can autoupgrade to either spears or bows. I think we can take the swordsmen from the militia anyway since they are sort of Elite they should better be a Standing army instead I suppose but spears and bows are a must have for Militia! ok gotta go now.

@Olleus
Sidenote: I will upload version three tomorrow. Can you check the worldbuilder error we get with the current mod Olleus?(mentioned it in the first post of the construction site) I think it's a pythonerror since it won't dissapear whatever the unitartdefines are and I think I got them almost correctly on my comp now(not yet uploaded) but still get the error. Could you also check the citizenstacker. I noticed weird graphics in the cityscreen.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Though normally I'm not fond of that high unitstats I would say lets give it a go and see how it works in the gameplay. If we use that much firststrikes we'll have to make sure to include the firststrike fix by LunarMoongoose(he stated that firststrike chances normally don't work correctly in civ cause of a typo by firaxis). If you don't know what I'm talking about check this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=175766

I would just suggest a few cosmetical changes(and maybe logical too). I would prefer spears against lightknights since that is what they most likely will encounter and Halberds and pikes(don't forget them) should receive boni against all mounted units:

spears 100% against lightknights
pikes 100% against Lightknights, Heavyknights
Halberds +50% Lightknights, Heavyknights, +20% defending cities

We have actually some Javeliners(Norse Huntsmen, arab spearmen i.e.) but no throwingaxes, slings and knifes(no models easily makeable yet and I doubt there will be in Warlords)

Characters should be better of than wizards concerning strength, (if I understand this correctly they are weaker in your propousal)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Wow! that is sheer genius right there! its fool proof, and will really make the units represent where they came from. Great job

However, this formula will not work for all of the ancient age units, as most of them are made up.

 

[Duke van Frost]

Very impressive system you came up with Olleus - I really love it and second it.

I don´t think the stats for the Grailknights are to high (19 for one of the best Units compared to 28 for the vanilla tank. And We need some difference between the stats, otherwise you would build lots of cheap units instead of some better ones, because the difference in strength isn´t high enough.

@Ploe: I don´t see why Helberds should get a plus for city defence? But you´re right that they should be better than Pikes. maybe give them a normal +strength modifier of 10% or so.

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Very impressive system you came up with Olleus - I really love it and second it.

I don´t think the stats for the Grailknights are to high (19 for one of the best Units compared to 28 for the vanilla tank. And We need some difference between the stats, otherwise you would build lots of cheap units instead of some better ones, because the difference in strength isn´t high enough.

@Ploe: I don´t see why Helberds should get a plus for city defence? But you´re right that they should be better than Pikes. maybe give them a normal +strength modifier of 10% or so.

The halberds second bonus was Olleus idea. I could imagine because it was indeed a weapon of cityguards mostly in history. I never fought with one myself to tell if it's really useful in that case though

 

[DutchJunkie]

Awesome list Lord Olleus .. really nice!

Halberds are the Empire's favorite weapons (most troops in the total Empire army are halberdiers). The form the backbone of every city defence.

I agree on Olleus' list. If some things are too strong, you can correct that (simply?) after playtesting .. right?

edit: only one thinh .. the 8/40 for small and large numbered units is kinda strange imo. A regular infantry unit has a minumum of 10 units and usually around 20 models in the unit. 40 is a LOT! almost none WH-player will fight with such a big unit, thus:
- small: 0-9 models (skirmishers, cavalry, loners)
- normal: 10-30 models (all infantry)
- large: 30-infinite models (mobs like goblins and skaven, swarms)

 

[Duke van Frost]

First:

Scouts in general need their 100% against animals back IMO. Get better results from the tribalvillages and only defend (all aspects like the vanilla ones)

We should have two versions of the Kraken - a weaker one, because strength 12 is too much IMO (model smaller) for the early ages and a stronger one (same size as now, but new skin) for the later ages.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

What do you mean no WH player uses units of 40 modles DJ? ive got a wood elf army with 1 unit of 40 archers, and my Khemri army has 40 archers also.

i say
- small: 0-9 models (skirmishers, cavalry, loners)
- normal: 10-20 models (all infantry)
- large: 30-40 (standing army units, ie archers, slingers, etc.
- Huge: 40-infinite models (mobs like goblins and skaven, swarms)

 

[Duke van Frost]

@PL: could you discuss this in the Formations thread pls, this ones for Unitstats and it´s getting offtopic with such discussions - and since we already got a thread for the Formations, you could also use that one

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Oh, i thought we were discussing what benifist and penalties different sized untis would get... oh well, will move this to the formations thread

 

[DutchJunkie]

What do you mean no WH player uses units of 40 modles DJ? ive got a wood elf army with 1 unit of 40 archers, and my Khemri army has 40 archers also.

i say
- small: 0-9 models (skirmishers, cavalry, loners)
- normal: 10-20 models (all infantry)
- large: 30-40 (standing army units, ie archers, slingers, etc.
- Huge: 40-infinite models (mobs like goblins and skaven, swarms)

really? bleeegh .. I hate playing a wood elf ranged army .. they kill to much .. I rarely meet people with that big units .. but how many points are you playing then?

srry .. didn't read the off-topic warning when posting .. /me shuts up

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I think it' complicated enough right now
I'll put a link in the first post to your post

Edit: We could use volunteers for calculating the Empire Units. The Empire units(of course not all of them) would be serving also as the standard or generic troops' values since they have not many special rules.