Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
I had a go at doing some empire unit stats with your formula Olleus, but alot of them came out odd, like way too low for their age, or way too high. take a look at the ones i did:
Spoiler :
Unitstats
- Thread starter Ploeperpengel
- Start date
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Can't be PL. You must have missed something. I.e. I get Str.19 for Greatswords without their equipment already! You probably took the WH str. Value as base strength and not the supposed basestrength by age which is already 12 for them without any modifier?Psychic_Llamas said:
Edit: oh wait a moment maybe you're right. I check another time.
Ok the stats for Greatswords would be:
[[4(WS)+5(Str3+2)+3(T)+2(W2*1)+2(A2*1)+3(Armor4+)]-18]*10=10
12+10%=Str 13 right?
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
No, i'm pretty sure that i used the formula correctly. besides, 19 for a Greatsword is crazy tough, considering thats stronger than the base strength for the mechanial age, and they are only in the age of Discovery.
I just think that the formula is a bit inconsistent, because all of the Empire human units have very similar stats, and then subtracting such a large Age Constant (12, 15, 18, 21) actually makes the later units weaker than the middle age units. (look at the Griffon compared to the Hand-Gunner!!)
I just think that the formula is a bit inconsistent, because all of the Empire human units have very similar stats, and then subtracting such a large Age Constant (12, 15, 18, 21) actually makes the later units weaker than the middle age units. (look at the Griffon compared to the Hand-Gunner!!)
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Grr do you allways have to respond so fast?
I updated the post above. I think Greatswords start of with str 13 +100% against Monsters, M1, 0 firststrikes
I updated the post above. I think Greatswords start of with str 13 +100% against Monsters, M1, 0 firststrikes
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
Yes, i think i rounded down all of the results i got. so 13 is probably corect. but that dosnt answer how we are going to fix the formula for the other units, ie:
Cavalry: Pistolier—S-9; M-2; FS-0; RC-20% ???
Musketman: Hand-Gunner—S-5.4; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Pikemen: Halberdiers—S-8.4; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Longbowmen: Imperial Hunters—S-6; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Crossbowmen: Imperial Marksmen—S-6; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Monster II: Griffon—S-20; M-2; FS-1-2; RC-20% ???
Cavalry: Pistolier—S-9; M-2; FS-0; RC-20% ???
Musketman: Hand-Gunner—S-5.4; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Pikemen: Halberdiers—S-8.4; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Longbowmen: Imperial Hunters—S-6; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Crossbowmen: Imperial Marksmen—S-6; M-1; FS-0; RC-0% ???
Monster II: Griffon—S-20; M-2; FS-1-2; RC-20% ???
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Yes you're right with this. Seems to me we should give boni to some weapons or alter the ageconstant. We really get some weird results. Just checked the Halbardiers too and they are definitly too weak.
Also there seems to be the cavalry and artillery quite unbalanced in comparison to infantry if we just changed the ageconstant.
Hm maybe better we just make up the values. We still can use the weaponmodifications though even then 100& against Monsters for Greatweapons might be too much if Monsters aren't too be really really strong.
Also there seems to be the cavalry and artillery quite unbalanced in comparison to infantry if we just changed the ageconstant.
Hm maybe better we just make up the values. We still can use the weaponmodifications though even then 100& against Monsters for Greatweapons might be too much if Monsters aren't too be really really strong.
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
I think it would almost fit for infanty but I fear we get all to strong cavalry with this. If we use maths here we would need dif modifications for every single weapontype.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
yes, i think a strict formula wount work very well here. perhaps have a loose rule saying that thing like elves should be weaker, but faster than humans, and things like orks should be stronger and slower than humans. just generalize it.
Duke van Frost
Lunatic Killer Robot
Lord Olleus said:
Yepp, I second that. Do the math give all stats after the same formula and then playtesting, discussions and afterwards changes - then again playtesting...
Sounds rather time cunsuming, but will definitely not be boring and seems to be the only way to get at this IMO.
I have to say, i never played WHFB on tabletop and did not have time to play civ, so i cant really come up with a clever conversion of the rules..., but cant we convert the tabletop stats effect on a tabletop battle somehow to civ instead of making an average of 4 gameplay technical different attributes?!
So, if a Unit has high WeaponSkills (WS) it means that it will make more likely a hit and you need a hit to make use of your Strenght (S) stat, so a unit with a high S and a low WS will be morelikely not to do any damage but get hit from a Unit with higher WS, so we Should resemble this by using Firststrikes (i think in vanila it works like that 2 units both having firststrike attack at the same time like none having firststrike, is that right?):
WS of 1and2: no chance on a firststrike
WS of 3: 1 chance on a firststrike
WS of 4: 2 chances on a firststrike
WS of 5: 3 chances on a Firststrike
WS of 6: 4 chances of a Firststrike
...
Attacks(A) and Initiative(I) will modify this:
A of 1: standard
A of 2: 1 Firststrike
A of 3: 2 Firststrikes
...
I of 1: 0% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 2: 0% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 3: 5% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 4: 10% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 5: 20% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 6: 30% Chance on a Firststrike
...+10%
And for the Base Strenght we should take Strenght(S) plus Toughness(T)
and give a Bonus of % for every Wound, so Monsters will get tougher...
Morale and Leadership should go into a Psychology, and affect withdrawl or retreat...
Ranged Units should perhaps get Bombard one or even more firststrikes depending on the inches they can fire.
Cavalry should get withdrawl to show their flanking ability
Furthermore we got the Weapons listed somewhere, which give small bonus and should act after the Rock Paper Skissor system
For the Saferoll, perhaps make a Promotion with Armored, which cant be upgraded by exp, but is given to units which have a saferoll and let this give bonus on strenght, and let some weapons do a bonus against armored units (dont know if some weapons ignore or modify the saferoll)
Thats my contribute to the Basic Stats System, on which you can debate.
I think it is clear where i want to go.
So, if a Unit has high WeaponSkills (WS) it means that it will make more likely a hit and you need a hit to make use of your Strenght (S) stat, so a unit with a high S and a low WS will be morelikely not to do any damage but get hit from a Unit with higher WS, so we Should resemble this by using Firststrikes (i think in vanila it works like that 2 units both having firststrike attack at the same time like none having firststrike, is that right?):
WS of 1and2: no chance on a firststrike
WS of 3: 1 chance on a firststrike
WS of 4: 2 chances on a firststrike
WS of 5: 3 chances on a Firststrike
WS of 6: 4 chances of a Firststrike
...
Attacks(A) and Initiative(I) will modify this:
A of 1: standard
A of 2: 1 Firststrike
A of 3: 2 Firststrikes
...
I of 1: 0% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 2: 0% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 3: 5% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 4: 10% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 5: 20% Chance on a Firststrike
I of 6: 30% Chance on a Firststrike
...+10%
And for the Base Strenght we should take Strenght(S) plus Toughness(T)
and give a Bonus of % for every Wound, so Monsters will get tougher...
Morale and Leadership should go into a Psychology, and affect withdrawl or retreat...
Ranged Units should perhaps get Bombard one or even more firststrikes depending on the inches they can fire.
Cavalry should get withdrawl to show their flanking ability
Furthermore we got the Weapons listed somewhere, which give small bonus and should act after the Rock Paper Skissor system
For the Saferoll, perhaps make a Promotion with Armored, which cant be upgraded by exp, but is given to units which have a saferoll and let this give bonus on strenght, and let some weapons do a bonus against armored units (dont know if some weapons ignore or modify the saferoll)
Thats my contribute to the Basic Stats System, on which you can debate.
I think it is clear where i want to go.
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
I disagree with ws 3 already giving a firststrike chance since this is the standard. Also we should think about including some other values into the formula. I'm not sure if everything I understand correctly but what we can work with seems to be this:
<iFirstStrikes>0</iFirstStrikes>
number of firststrikes
<iChanceFirstStrikes>0</iChanceFirstStrikes>
number of firststrike chance(what's the chance exactly for each? I need to know)
<iWithdrawalProb>0</iWithdrawalProb>
percentage chance a unit can withdraw from combat, I believe if it attacks only
<iEvasionProbability>0</iEvasionProbability>
I believe the same as above just if defending not attacking
<iCollateralDamage>0</iCollateralDamage>
percentage of damage inflicted that is passed on to other units
<iCollateralDamageLimit>0</iCollateralDamageLimit>
percentage limit of damage inflicted on other units in a stack
<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>0</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
I believe the max nr of units in a stack which can be affected by collateral damage
<bFirstStrikeImmune>0</bFirstStrikeImmune>
well immunity to firststrikes yes or no
I don't know where actually we can alter the percentage chance of a firststrike. If it's not in xml I 'd say better not work with that value.
The general direction I like of this idea so lets see how we can get into the details.
Additional attacks could as well give collateral damage imo instead of firststrikes and the ini could pass for firststrikes instead only maybe divided by 3(round normal but ini 10 gives 4!)
<iFirstStrikes>0</iFirstStrikes>
number of firststrikes
<iChanceFirstStrikes>0</iChanceFirstStrikes>
number of firststrike chance(what's the chance exactly for each? I need to know)
<iWithdrawalProb>0</iWithdrawalProb>
percentage chance a unit can withdraw from combat, I believe if it attacks only
<iEvasionProbability>0</iEvasionProbability>
I believe the same as above just if defending not attacking
<iCollateralDamage>0</iCollateralDamage>
percentage of damage inflicted that is passed on to other units
<iCollateralDamageLimit>0</iCollateralDamageLimit>
percentage limit of damage inflicted on other units in a stack
<iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>0</iCollateralDamageMaxUnits>
I believe the max nr of units in a stack which can be affected by collateral damage
<bFirstStrikeImmune>0</bFirstStrikeImmune>
well immunity to firststrikes yes or no
I don't know where actually we can alter the percentage chance of a firststrike. If it's not in xml I 'd say better not work with that value.
The general direction I like of this idea so lets see how we can get into the details.
Additional attacks could as well give collateral damage imo instead of firststrikes and the ini could pass for firststrikes instead only maybe divided by 3(round normal but ini 10 gives 4!)
Ok, i thought again about it and first some questions:
-Is there a way to adjust damage ( strength goes into your and the other units damage) to make more damage without taking the enemy damage away (like a higher strength would do) and the other way round, reducing taken damage, this would be good for the save rolls (I think i saw something like this somewhere)
-Can we make use of the non deadly combat (i think a mod is out there enabling it)
?
And some alterations for the above mentioned Stat System as we cant adjust the %-Chance on Firststrikes i fear, we should perhaps grant firststrikes by Initiative and additional chances by WS... and do something else with Attacks, like a damage bonus. (it would not affect many units, only the bigger ones)
Bows could get a low percantage on collateral damage, depending on their BS and firststrikechances by their inches and WS
Crossbows and Muskets should instead of collateral damage (cause of slow firing) get a damage bonus and a firststrike malus.
well complicated using the same system for ranged and melee units...
-Is there a way to adjust damage ( strength goes into your and the other units damage) to make more damage without taking the enemy damage away (like a higher strength would do) and the other way round, reducing taken damage, this would be good for the save rolls (I think i saw something like this somewhere)
-Can we make use of the non deadly combat (i think a mod is out there enabling it)
?
And some alterations for the above mentioned Stat System as we cant adjust the %-Chance on Firststrikes i fear, we should perhaps grant firststrikes by Initiative and additional chances by WS... and do something else with Attacks, like a damage bonus. (it would not affect many units, only the bigger ones)
Bows could get a low percantage on collateral damage, depending on their BS and firststrikechances by their inches and WS
Crossbows and Muskets should instead of collateral damage (cause of slow firing) get a damage bonus and a firststrike malus.
well complicated using the same system for ranged and melee units...
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Ok in this case no evasion is withdrawal for both defenders and attacker then?
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
My opinion how we should use WH-Values roughly outlined:
WS/BS(whichever is higher) should give firststrike chances
STR+Toughness+Attacks+Saving Rolls should be reflected in STR + Era-Mod
Ini should be reflected in firststrikes and or maybe withdrawal chances
Movement should be reflected in withdrawal chances and of course movement
@Olleus
For this much firststrikes, think we can have the game calculating the combatodds display correctly?
Extraordinary powerful units could be firststrikeimmune in this system
Weapons we can reflect via promotionsettings later:
i.e Lances +20% strength attacking etc.
and of course also reflectng the paper-stone scissor system
Does everyone ROUGHLY agree with this? Then we can make up the details...
Edit: This all shouldn't change the basics of civ combat at least not for now.
WS/BS(whichever is higher) should give firststrike chances
STR+Toughness+Attacks+Saving Rolls should be reflected in STR + Era-Mod
Ini should be reflected in firststrikes and or maybe withdrawal chances
Movement should be reflected in withdrawal chances and of course movement
@Olleus
For this much firststrikes, think we can have the game calculating the combatodds display correctly?
Extraordinary powerful units could be firststrikeimmune in this system
Weapons we can reflect via promotionsettings later:
i.e Lances +20% strength attacking etc.
and of course also reflectng the paper-stone scissor system
Does everyone ROUGHLY agree with this? Then we can make up the details...
Edit: This all shouldn't change the basics of civ combat at least not for now.
Ok, if we want it to be for average joe, then we shouldnt change the system, but we should make use of the systems values.
And i read about calculating combat odds and how combat works.
The chance to hit a unit in a combat round is calculated by A/(A+D) and D/(D+A) where A&D are Strength of Attacker and Defender. So the Ratio is very important!!!
So using firststrikes and firststrike chances is a very good idea, cause it works well for us and can resemble a bit better the tabletop system. (one unit with a higher initiative would strike first in tabletop and in civ, both firststrike numbers are compared and the higher one gets the difference (2 firstrike for A versus 3 firststrikes of B will result in one firststrike for B).
I fully agree with it.
Strength and Toughness added and a percentage multiplier for wounds and attacks(as a combat not strength modifier)! This should give us extreme nice Basic Strength. The rest is can be done by Weapons, Equipment and Armor.
the save should be a +strength giving promotion like stated above and could be reduced by armor penetrating weapons.
And i read about calculating combat odds and how combat works.
The chance to hit a unit in a combat round is calculated by A/(A+D) and D/(D+A) where A&D are Strength of Attacker and Defender. So the Ratio is very important!!!
So using firststrikes and firststrike chances is a very good idea, cause it works well for us and can resemble a bit better the tabletop system. (one unit with a higher initiative would strike first in tabletop and in civ, both firststrike numbers are compared and the higher one gets the difference (2 firstrike for A versus 3 firststrikes of B will result in one firststrike for B).
I fully agree with it.
Strength and Toughness added and a percentage multiplier for wounds and attacks(as a combat not strength modifier)! This should give us extreme nice Basic Strength. The rest is can be done by Weapons, Equipment and Armor.
the save should be a +strength giving promotion like stated above and could be reduced by armor penetrating weapons.
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Avarage Unitsize maybe better just be reflected in costs. To prevent heros and wizards to be too powerful respective to other units we don't need a system imo. That is a small alteration.
Ok is this just two poeple talking again?
Ok is this just two poeple talking again?
Duke van Frost
Lunatic Killer Robot
seZereth said:
Is this the way it works in WH, cIV, or both?
I think it is important, If we want to use that much firststrikes.
And Promotions that give firststrikes will be not as valuable IMO if Units get much more Firststrikes right from the start - But this should be no problem.
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
Civ of course Duke. So this means you disagree because you want to keep the promotions valueable?
Duke van Frost
Lunatic Killer Robot
No, I would rather disagree If every Unit would get all of its Firststrikes.
I think It´s fine if it breaks down to one unit having one first strike against the one with less firstrike chances.
But maybe promotions should then give 2 extra firstrikes/firststrikechances (could somebody explain the real difference between those two for the pathetic me?)
But that talk should go into another thread for promotions, which I will most certainly open soon, because I think some of those that are in the mod are odd - That will be after we had at least one round of playtesting with Unitstats from a system we decide upon here.
I think It´s fine if it breaks down to one unit having one first strike against the one with less firstrike chances.
But maybe promotions should then give 2 extra firstrikes/firststrikechances (could somebody explain the real difference between those two for the pathetic me?)
But that talk should go into another thread for promotions, which I will most certainly open soon, because I think some of those that are in the mod are odd - That will be after we had at least one round of playtesting with Unitstats from a system we decide upon here.
i love my firststrikes system (and i read that it works like this)!!! and the rest of the basic stats system is fine as well!!!
We should create promotions for each weapon, armor and equipment which has different boni, and then simple add the promotions to the units from start on. this would be a nice thing in my eyes, cause the basic stats could be easily worked out with the "formula" above and then be easily modifiied by promotions. give each a nice picture (there are enough out there) and we got a nice system to start working with, and after playtesting we can adjust things. But we should start working on the details then!
We should create promotions for each weapon, armor and equipment which has different boni, and then simple add the promotions to the units from start on. this would be a nice thing in my eyes, cause the basic stats could be easily worked out with the "formula" above and then be easily modifiied by promotions. give each a nice picture (there are enough out there) and we got a nice system to start working with, and after playtesting we can adjust things. But we should start working on the details then!
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