Unitstats

Duke van Frost said:
No, I would rather disagree If every Unit would get all of its Firststrikes.

I think It´s fine if it breaks down to one unit having one first strike against the one with less firstrike chances.

But maybe promotions should then give 2 extra firstrikes/firststrikechances (could somebody explain the real difference between those two for the pathetic me?)

But that talk should go into another thread for promotions, which I will most certainly open soon, because I think some of those that are in the mod are odd - That will be after we had at least one round of playtesting with Unitstats from a system we decide upon here.

A firststrike is a given firststrike and a chance on a firststrike is a 50% chance to get one or not, i think you know what i mean?!
Promotions will have to be adjusted any way!
And i think the firststrike system can nicely reflect the warhammer system and make the mod more unique without altering basic civ gameplay too much
 
OK, thx pointing that out, I thought it was that way, but wasn´t quite sure. And I don´t want to join the discussion if I´m not that sure, so maybe I´ll keep on asking some details.

My Conclusion: give the new system a go and calculate the stats, adjustments will be made after playtesting, but that would be true anyway, no matter what.
 
Ok, ill summarize what we have, to get into the details and finally get some unitstats done for testing purposes.

if something gives a plus or multiplier in something, it should be calculated from the Basic Value

Basic CIV Strength of a Unit
WH Strength + Toughness


Weaponskill (WS) (and for Archers replace WS with BS)
WS of 1and2: no chance on a firststrike
WS of 3: 0 chance on a firststrike
WS of 4: 1 chances on a firststrike
WS of 5: 2 chances on a Firststrike
WS of 6: 3 chances of a Firststrike
...

Initiative(I)
I of 1: 0 Firststrike
I of 2: 0 Firststrike
I of 3: 0 Firststrike
I of 4: 1 Firststrike
I of 5: 1 Firststrike + a chance
I of 6: 2 Firststrike
I of 7: 2 Firststikes + a chance
I of 8: 3 Firststrikes
I of 9: 3 Firststrikes + a chance
I of 10: 4 Firststrikes

Attacks(A) will modify this:
A of 1: + 0% Combat
A of 2: + 20% Combat
A of 3: + 40% Combat
...

Wounds (W):
W of 1: +0% Strength
W of 2: +50%Strength
W of 3: +100%Strength
...


Leadership, Movement and Moral have to be done by someone else.

The next big thing are Weapons, Armor and Equipment.
These should be done via Promotions (recieving a nice Icon)

This is a modifiied List from Dutch

Close Combat Weapons list:
Hand Weapon
- No special rules, +25%versus Archers
Great Weapon
- WH: +2strength, requires two hands, strikes last
- CIV: combat bonus (40%), no first strikes by initiative, + 50% versus Monsters, ignores Armor
Flail
- WH: +2 strength bonus in first turn of combat, requires two hands
- CIV: combat bonus (20%)
Morning Star
- WH: +1 strength bonus in first turn of combat
- CIV: combat bonus (10%) when attacking,
Halberd
- WH: +1 strength bonus, requires two hands
- CIV: combat bonus (20%), +50% vs Monsters, ignores Armor
Spear (infantry)
- WH: fight in two ranks
- CIV: +50% versus Cavalry, +10% Defense Bonus
Spears (cavalry)
- WH: +1 strength bonus in first turn when charging
- CIV: combat bonus (10%) when attacking
Lance
- WH: +2 strength bonus in first turn when charging
- CIV: combat bonus (20%) when attacking
Pistol (in hand-to-hand combat)
- WH: +1 attack (strength 4 armour piercing in first turn of combat)
- CIV: ignores the armor promotion


Missile Weapons list:
"All units with shooting weapons have the ability to ‘stand and shoot’ when attacked and can shoot from a distance. This must be represented as a first strike when the square is attacked and when the unit is attacking." (didnt alter this yet)

City and Hill defense it should be
Shortbow
- WH: 16 inch, strength 3
- CIV: +5% city defence bonus
Bow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3
- CIV: +15% city defence bonus, + Collateral Damage, +1 Firststrikechance
Longbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 3
- CIV:+25% city defence bonus, + more Collateral Damage, +1 Firststrike
Crossbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 4
- CIV: +25% city defence bonus, ignores Armor, + 10% Combat
Repeater Crossbow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3, 2x multiple shots
- CIV: +25% city defence bonus, ignores Armor
Sling
- WH: 18 inch, strength 3, 2x multiple shots if enemy within 9 inch
- CIV: +5% city defence bonus
Javelin:
- WH: 8 inch, strength as user
- CIV: No city defence, +5% stength
Throwing Star/Knife
- WH: 6 inch, strength as user
- CIV: No city defence, +5% stength
Throwing Axe
- WH: 6 inch, strength as user +1
- CIV: No city defence, +10% stength
Handgun
- WH: 24 inch, strength 4, move-or-fire, armour piercing
- CIV: +30% city defence bonus, ignores Armor
Pistol
- WH: 8 inch, strength 4, armour piercing
- CIV: +20% city defence bonus, ignores Armor, + 10% Combat

sorry have to go, this list isnt perfect or complete, but it is a Start, please go on and contribute and criticize
 
Good list so far.

I´ll only comment on two things, because I haven´t thought about everything yet.

seZereth said:
Ok, ill summarize what we have, to get into the details and finally get some unitstats done for testing purposes.


Pistol (in hand-to-hand combat)
- WH: +1 attack (strength 4 armour piercing in first turn of combat)
- CIV: ignores the armor promotion

If 2 Attacks in WH get 20% Combat Bonus in cIV, then the +1 Attack from the Pistols should be rated higher then only giving the ignore armour bonus IMO.

I suggest +10% or +20% against Melee Units.


seZereth said:
Bow
- WH: 24 inch, strength 3
- CIV: +15% city defence bonus, + Collateral Damage, +1 Firststrikechance
Longbow
- WH: 30 inch, strength 3
- CIV:+25% city defence bonus, + more Collateral Damage, +1 Firststrike

If those weapons are supposed to inflict collateral damage (good idea IMO) I would suggest to limit this collateral damage to only 1-2 Units and let them deal no high %, like 10-25%.

I´ll have a closer look and comment on other things later.
 
Lord Olleus said:
what about immune to first strike ability? This would get far to powerful. we should try to limit first strikes to ranged and elite units only.
I thought you agree on the basic system and it was written that firtstrike immune ability should be given to exceptionally powerful units only;)

And yes we get era none specific values with that but we only have three real eras and it shouldn't be to hard to take acount of that aferwards. Let's see first if we can manage some differences in power by weapon modifiers. Ancient units can simply be made weaker since they are made up we don't have any WH-rules for them anyway.
 
So lets see what we get:

Empire core units would have a basic Str of 6, no firststrike chance and no firststrike.

The Gladeguard(if melee) would have a basic strength of 6, 1 firststrike and 2 FS chances! if Archer they evebn get three FS chances!

weapon modifiers not included

Think the Empire Soldier got any chance? I think not much of it.

If we want to convert WH-Rules to civ we should be careful to not overexceed effects of WH-stats.

What's the effect of WS and STR/T in WH exactly?

A human attacking a Human has (WS 3 against WS 3) means he has a 50% chance to hit. If he hits he gets another 50% Chance to wound (Str 3 against Toughness 3). So what we have is a chance of 25% to kill his opponent(since he only has 1 wound). For the defender this means a 75% chance to survive the first blow and strike back. That means his chance to kill the attacker is about 19%.

The gladeguard has a chance of 66% to hit and the same chance to wound(fighting a human). Chance to killl is therefore 33%. The Empire Soldiers chance to survive the attack and kill the elf instead would be round about 16,5%.

The chances would stay the same if the elf had a WS of 4,5,6 - no matter!

here the tab for dice rolls to hit:

Spoiler :
Def WS

AT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
1 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
2 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5
3 3 3 4 4 4 4 5 5 5 5
4 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 5
5 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4 4
6 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4 4
7 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 4
8 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4 4
9 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 4
10 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4


Sorry for the chaos: vertical line is Attackers value horizontal line defenders WS.
See what I mean? Weaponskill 10 sounds impressive but it doesn't matter much regarding hit chances if the attacker has WS 10 or just 4 against a def with WS 3. I counts just a little more if the defender got a WS value more than two times higher than the attacker, that's all.
So if we use WS I recommend small steps:

WS 1-3: no FS chance
WS 4-6: 1 FS chance
WS 7-9: 2 FS Chances
WS 10: 3 FS chances
 
With ini it's also overpowered in your suggestion, seZ.
In the example above (human against human) a higher ini would decide who gets the 25% and who the 19 %. The difference is just 6%. Of course striking first gets more powerful if also str and ws are higher.

I recommend something similar as above:
Ini:0-2: nada
Ini:3-5: 1 FS
Ini:6-8: 2 FS
Ini: 9-10: 3 FS


So in my version the gladeguard still would get 1 FS + 1 chance(since th Empire soldier got a FS too, he disables 1 firststrike of the gladeguard) and normaly win-so I guess he should be more expensive. In WH he costs roughly about 50% more than the Empire Soldier and since the Elf will likely get some boni in woodterrain too and maybe even move faster he should indeed cost at least 1,5 times the shields of the Empire Soldier. I think somewhere in this direction we can balance this.
Note: Ini of less than 3 normally are really slow units like undead and Dwarfs. Elves have normally Ini 6. Humans 3. Values in between or above apply mostly to monsters and heros(powerful individuals)

Weapons and Armor not yet taken to account(I recommend we put this after we decided about the basic stats-small steps!)
 
You're forgetting that initiative is only used from 2nd round of combat. The first round the charger get's to have a try first. Can this be implied? otherwise it's useless to attack a stronger opponent.

But i like the way you want to implement I and WS.
 
Who can charge in WH and who is normally defending is normally decided by Movement. Don't worry I didn't forget that. But it's something I want to simulate roughly by weapon and trooptypes. Cavalry getting boni attacking i.e.(that's possible). Troops with higher ini are mostly faster troops too so they will be more likly to charge also. But I don't want to reflect this in much further boni, this could easily get unbalanced. Lets push aside this for now and first decide the basics.
 
Ok, as i stated, i am not expreienced in whfb tabletop, so i prefer Ploeperpengels calculations and would say he is right with his new reduced firststrikes suggestions (but i really want to keep them).

@Olleus: i didnt see your list, i simply missed it, really sorry. Had a look at it and it sounds good concerning the melee weapons (considering small collateral Damage or armor piercing for ranged). and by this list you would get your "age constant", cause a spear not giving bonus against heavy cavalry makes heavy cavalry extremely powerfull... and something like this could be done with the rest too. And perhaps if a weapon in WH gives +1 or +2 strength, give it the same in CIV.

@Dutchjunkie: "You're forgetting that initiative is only used from 2nd round of combat. The first round the charger get's to have a try first. Can this be implied? otherwise it's useless to attack a stronger opponen" this could be reflected by a +20% Attack for every unit ;) or something like that.

Ok, we then should get to a conclusion about that, so we can try it and create the weapon, armor promotions.
 
well someone could easily write a fast excell sheed, where you type in the WS, A, I ... stats and get a calculation for the CIV stats... that should be fairly straightforward, i will go now and study, and later i will get into the formations and continue cleaning up / modifiing the unit graphics.... if i ever can open the unitinfo... (it did not respond, i think it is simply too big, will have to try it with fresh RAM...) furthermore, i think you forgot to set the officer meshgroups to the last one. will have to do that too...
 
I made a beginning for an Excel Stats Calculator .. (was bored at work)

You can fill in:
- WH-unitstats
- Weapons (binary)
- Age (binary)
to get the strength and bonusses for the Civ-unit

You can determine in the tabs:
- How strength is calculated
- The age-multiplier
- The weapon bonusses

Other things haven't been implemented yet .. i will only do so if someone is gonna use it ;)

ONLY CHANGE THE WHITE PARTS! .. i hope it's kinda usable :mischief:

edit: small strength calculator update
 

Attachments

Ok, i missed alot in my speed reading , and now im confused:sad:

So here are my ideas:

First Strikes:
Spoiler :

I=5-6 --- 1 first strike
I=7-8 --- 1-2 first strikes
I=9-10 --- 2-3 first strikes



Strength:

Spoiler :

the base strength of (4, 8, 12, 16) plus all of the modifiers below:
WS or BS= 1 --- -3 strength
WS or BS= 2 --- -2 strength
WS or BS= 3 --- -1 strength
WS or BS= 4 --- +0 strength
WS or BS= 5 --- +0 strength
WS or BS= 6 --- +0 strength
WS or BS= 7 --- +1 strength
WS or BS= 8 --- +2 strength
WS or BS= 9 --- +3 strength
WS or BS= 10 --- +4 strength

And also add this modifier

S+T= 1 --- -2 strength
S+T= 2-4--- -1 strength
S+T= 5-7 --- +0 strength
S+T= 8-10 --- +0 strength
S+T= 11-13 --- +1 strength
S+T= 14-16 --- +2 strength
S+T= 17-19 --- +3 strength
S+T= 20-- +4 strength

And also add this modifier

W = 1 --- +0 strength
W = 2 --- +1 strength
W = 3 --- +1 strength
W = 4 --- +2 strength
W = 5 --- +2 strength
W = >6 --- +3 strength



Movement:
Spoiler :

M = 1-4 --- 1 movement
M = 5-8 --- 2 movement
M = 9 or more --- 3 movement
 
DutchJunkie said:
Other things haven't been implemented yet .. i will only do so if someone is gonna use it ;)

ONLY CHANGE THE WHITE PARTS! .. i hope it's kinda usable :mischief:

edit: small strength calculator update

I´m quite sure we will have the need for such a calculator!

But I don´t have Excel, so I can´t use it :(

BTW what is the SMALL strength calculator?
 
Duke van Frost said:
I´m quite sure we will have the need for such a calculator!

But I don´t have Excel, so I can´t use it :(

BTW what is the SMALL strength calculator?
the update is SMALL not the calculator or the strength ;)

Thanks for the Editor, we will have to wait for everyone agreeing on the System and then we can use the editor to work itr out. i will have a look at it and see if i can make use of it for testing purposes...
 
seZereth said:
the update is SMALL not the calculator or the strength ;)

Thanks for the Editor, we will have to wait for everyone agreeing on the System and then we can use the editor to work itr out. i will have a look at it and see if i can make use of it for testing purposes...

I was bored so made it .. :lol:

So can adjust all weapon effect etcetera .. so that can be changed easily ..
It's purpose is simply to fill in the WH stats and find out what the CIV-stats should be ..

I'll update it if i'm bored again ..
 
Ploeperpengel said:
I don't have excel either unfortunatly but am curious could you post a few example rsults of what you got with it?

Well .. I just tried the basic human stats :mischief: ..

Human: 5,5
Knightly Orders: 9
of the inner Circle: 10
Eternal Guard: 9
Forest Dragon: 22

this is without weapons, but with armour (sorry, lack of time this morning)

The era suggestions I took over are a little bit too much .. would give the dragon in last era (appropiate place for a dragon) 44 strength :crazyeye:

Lord Olleus said:
So which method did you end up choosing for calculating unit stats?

I read somewhere that the basic human strength should be around 6. The forumula at the moment is (Ws-4) +(Bs-4) +S +T +W +A +(-(Sv/2)+3), which gives the average human strength 5,5 in the first Era.

Can anyone tell me what the necessry CIV-stats are? Now I got only strenght (and strength when, offensive, defensive, versus etcetera), firststikes and first strike chances.
 
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