Maybe it's enough to reach a high level of civilisation, without having to go and wreck other people's? I'd say that if China has been less of a bully on the world stage than its power might suggest, that's a point in its favour. After all, conquest costs enormous money and resources. The Roman empire was at its peak during precisely the period when it stopped conquering other countries (the second century AD).
UNluckiest Nation Ever?
- Thread starter Cheezy the Wiz
- Start date
To be honest I don't think China was altogether too bothered about expanding it's empire much. Granted there's the disputed 1421 world travelling attempting to bring everyone under the Chinese system of tribute, but that was not so much a conquest... as China forfeit it all in favour of isolationist policy which I would say still exists today, much to the West's dismay.
As for the unluckiest nation... granted there's the subject of debating just what a nation actually is, but if I take a nation to be a people with a firmly established territorial claim, then there's quite possibly a fair few unlucky ones out there that none of us got to ever see. There's no real quantitive measure for how unlucky a nation has been in that definition, as from an outside viewpoint you can give it a sort of measure, but someone else sees it differently.
For example, when the Bolsheviks took over Russia. I know someone whose family lost a lot in that, and they were forced to flee to the west into Europe. Now, from their point of view they could say Russia was unlucky to have to go through the rules of Lenin, Stalin and later Bolsheviks. Other people could say however that what Lenin created was a social experiment not seen on any scale. The side effects of it were not intended. Where do we stand on this one?
Anyway, let's not complicate this with random thinkings. This came up because I couldn't say what happened to one nation was any more unlucky than another.
As for the unluckiest nation... granted there's the subject of debating just what a nation actually is, but if I take a nation to be a people with a firmly established territorial claim, then there's quite possibly a fair few unlucky ones out there that none of us got to ever see. There's no real quantitive measure for how unlucky a nation has been in that definition, as from an outside viewpoint you can give it a sort of measure, but someone else sees it differently.
For example, when the Bolsheviks took over Russia. I know someone whose family lost a lot in that, and they were forced to flee to the west into Europe. Now, from their point of view they could say Russia was unlucky to have to go through the rules of Lenin, Stalin and later Bolsheviks. Other people could say however that what Lenin created was a social experiment not seen on any scale. The side effects of it were not intended. Where do we stand on this one?
Anyway, let's not complicate this with random thinkings. This came up because I couldn't say what happened to one nation was any more unlucky than another.
El Justo
Deity
nice remarks AxiomUk. 
the Bolshevik example is another i hadn't thought of. i have family (in-laws) who lost everything when Castro came to power. so, yeah, i suppose that these examples could suffice.
as for the "unintended side effects":
yup, there's always 2 sides (or more) to a story.
the Bolshevik example is another i hadn't thought of. i have family (in-laws) who lost everything when Castro came to power. so, yeah, i suppose that these examples could suffice.
as for the "unintended side effects":
yup, there's always 2 sides (or more) to a story.
spacedragonblue
Lost in Space
How about Bolivia? It's lost more than 50% of its territory since its creation and is now poor and landlocked. Prehaps #1 most unlucky for South America?
spacedragonblue said:
Yes. But the whole of South America have been unlucky from the 1500s onwards. First came the Incan civil wars between Huayna Capac's son Huascar and Atahualpa. Then came the genocide of the native Americans by the Spanish and Portuguese conquerers. Those who survived were a) wiped out by European disease, b) forced to adopt European ways of life, c) work as slaves in silver mines, gold mines, expeditions to find El Dorado, plantations etc or d) driven to inaccessable areas of the continent.
The Spanish then lost the colonies in a bitter war. The independent colonies the spent the next century (give or take a few decades) destroying each other. During the Cold War the region can be describe as America's Warsaw Pact. To this day the countries of South America suffered from the rule of pro-US juntas, autocrats and oligarchs, marxist movements, conflicts ethnic groups and social classes, economic stagnation and widespread poverty.
Mirc
Not mIRC!!!
The first that came into my mind was Romania, of course.
After that I would say Lebanon, maybe? And, if you count countries that don't exist any more, maybe the Aztecs, Incans, or Mayans?
To complete Heretic_Cata's article: And if that law (I don't know how to name it in English, "legea lustratiei") is not applied, all the EU money which might come in Romania will be absorbed by that people from the Secret Police you were talking about. The law says that any person who had a political position in the communist regime should not be able to participate in today's politics. But they don't want to vote it!!!
After that I would say Lebanon, maybe? And, if you count countries that don't exist any more, maybe the Aztecs, Incans, or Mayans?
To complete Heretic_Cata's article: And if that law (I don't know how to name it in English, "legea lustratiei") is not applied, all the EU money which might come in Romania will be absorbed by that people from the Secret Police you were talking about. The law says that any person who had a political position in the communist regime should not be able to participate in today's politics. But they don't want to vote it!!!
If historical examples are allowed, I'm going for the Dacians. They had the misfortune to have plenty of treasure and large deposits of gold and silver at a time when the neighbouring Roman Empire was strapped for cash and under the leadership of a new emperor looking for a military victory to boost his standing (Trajan).
After the failed attempt to assimilate the Germans during the time of Augustus, the Romans decided not to mess about and to simply exterminate the Dacians. They did such a thorough job of it that the land they conquered is named after them: Romania.
At least the Inca and Aztec people survived (although in reduced circuimstances), and they are both now experiencing a cultural revival. The Arawaks had it worse: they were utterly exterminated in the century after Columbus reached the Caribbean.
After the failed attempt to assimilate the Germans during the time of Augustus, the Romans decided not to mess about and to simply exterminate the Dacians. They did such a thorough job of it that the land they conquered is named after them: Romania.
At least the Inca and Aztec people survived (although in reduced circuimstances), and they are both now experiencing a cultural revival. The Arawaks had it worse: they were utterly exterminated in the century after Columbus reached the Caribbean.
Heretic_Cata
We're gonna live forever
Acording to some, the dacians were asimilated.
Here is the top 5:
1. Poland: between several agressive Empire, partitionned 3 times, betrayed by France in 1939, occupied by the Russians afterward.
2. Palestine. Cursed with hollyness.
3. Belgium. Although neutral, Belgian is one of the country that has seen the most battles in history.
4. Congo: colonized by the Belgians, the most ruthless colonial power in Africa, and then plagued with civil war.
5. France: because it is full of French, and the natural assets of the country are not even enough to compensate for all the flaws of its inhabitants.
1. Poland: between several agressive Empire, partitionned 3 times, betrayed by France in 1939, occupied by the Russians afterward.
2. Palestine. Cursed with hollyness.
3. Belgium. Although neutral, Belgian is one of the country that has seen the most battles in history.
4. Congo: colonized by the Belgians, the most ruthless colonial power in Africa, and then plagued with civil war.
5. France: because it is full of French, and the natural assets of the country are not even enough to compensate for all the flaws of its inhabitants.
Steph said:
You make me laugh, Steph! But you forgot to add this to the list of reasons why Belgium is so unlucky: it's got all those French right next door, so many of them that the poor old Belgians even have to speak their language. I'm from Folkestone so I can sympathise with that.
sydhe
King of Kongs
Uganda's a candidate for suffering through Idi Amin and Milton Obote, then through a major AIDS epidemic.
~Corsair#01~
Deity
The Phoenicians were quite unlucky, although perhaps not any more so than countless other nations that were destroyed or submerged during ye olden times.
Any backward and genocidal central African state would probably be the best candidate.
Any backward and genocidal central African state would probably be the best candidate.
Fox Mccloud
Deity
China from about 1800 to about 1970.
In 1800, China was doing ok, and was still a great power, but then....
The Taiping rebilion/civil war: 20 to 40 million casualties.
It came close to rivaling WWII.
famine after Taiping rebelion further depopulates the country.
Punti-Hakka clan wars: 1 million
Russians take over Outer Manchucria. Japan and Western countries force the Chinese to agree to "unequal treaties". forcing China to open up to westerners. During second half of 19th century, China is exploited by imperialistic powers.
In 1900, Chinese try to stop the European imperialism. After a short war, and a siege of Beijing, foreign soldiers were allowed in Beijing in the most humiliating treaty in Chinese history.
In 1911, the Qing empire collapsed. A period of Warlordism follows. At least 2 million dei itn teh fighting.
In 1931 the Japanese annex Manchuria and establish a puppet state of Manchukuo.
In 1936 to 1945 the Japanese invade, and a long war is fought. The war devastated China leaving 15 million casualties, and 100 million refugees. The Japanese commited many atrocities while in China.
From 1945 to 1949, a Civil war erupted between the Kuomintang and the Communists. Mao Zedong of the Communists won, and the war costed some 4 million casualties.
In 1950 to 1953 Mao Zedong ordered the army to fight in Korea. Chinese took heavy casualties, as much as a million by some estimates.
During the 50's, and 60's, Mao Zedong created the "Great Leap Forward". It was designed to make the Chinese economy great again, but was poorly planed. Millions of peasants were forced from their lands into the factories creating a famine of 30 million casualties.
The "Clutral Revolution" led to the near destruction of Chinese ancient heritage and identy.
After Mao Zedong was gone in 1976, China's sufferings finally began to end. Even today though, China has a dictatorship, though it is freer then it was under Mao.
The amount of suffering of China was incredible. I'm surprised it has hardly been mentioned.
In 1800, China was doing ok, and was still a great power, but then....
The Taiping rebilion/civil war: 20 to 40 million casualties.
It came close to rivaling WWII.famine after Taiping rebelion further depopulates the country.
Punti-Hakka clan wars: 1 million
Russians take over Outer Manchucria. Japan and Western countries force the Chinese to agree to "unequal treaties". forcing China to open up to westerners. During second half of 19th century, China is exploited by imperialistic powers.
In 1900, Chinese try to stop the European imperialism. After a short war, and a siege of Beijing, foreign soldiers were allowed in Beijing in the most humiliating treaty in Chinese history.
In 1911, the Qing empire collapsed. A period of Warlordism follows. At least 2 million dei itn teh fighting.
In 1931 the Japanese annex Manchuria and establish a puppet state of Manchukuo.
In 1936 to 1945 the Japanese invade, and a long war is fought. The war devastated China leaving 15 million casualties, and 100 million refugees. The Japanese commited many atrocities while in China.
From 1945 to 1949, a Civil war erupted between the Kuomintang and the Communists. Mao Zedong of the Communists won, and the war costed some 4 million casualties.
In 1950 to 1953 Mao Zedong ordered the army to fight in Korea. Chinese took heavy casualties, as much as a million by some estimates.
During the 50's, and 60's, Mao Zedong created the "Great Leap Forward". It was designed to make the Chinese economy great again, but was poorly planed. Millions of peasants were forced from their lands into the factories creating a famine of 30 million casualties.
The "Clutral Revolution" led to the near destruction of Chinese ancient heritage and identy.
After Mao Zedong was gone in 1976, China's sufferings finally began to end. Even today though, China has a dictatorship, though it is freer then it was under Mao.
The amount of suffering of China was incredible. I'm surprised it has hardly been mentioned.
Heretic_Cata
We're gonna live forever
^
It did suffer quite a lot during the last 2 centuries ... but the way i see it, it did preety well in the other past centuries. And the "From great to terrible" situation kinda makes ppl think it could have been worse. That's why no one nomineed it. (IMHO)
? Am i going to be censored ? 
It did suffer quite a lot during the last 2 centuries ... but the way i see it, it did preety well in the other past centuries. And the "From great to terrible" situation kinda makes ppl think it could have been worse. That's why no one nomineed it. (IMHO)
You should have mentioned the Tiananmen Square incident ... Are you from China btwFox Mccloud said:
? Am i going to be censored ? 
RickFGS
Deity
Angola, one of the richest country of the world in natural resources, all sorts of gem stones, gold and silver open air mines, oversea oil reserves enough for Europe´s consumption alone. Yet scaveged by a decades of war, misery and famine. Has one of the biggest landmine fields in the planet, the accidents with mines are almost one by day, and as the highest percentage of prostate legs population in the world.
Fair to say, that is better that you´re country has no natural resources of value at all, for the greed of man destroys everything.
Fair to say, that is better that you´re country has no natural resources of value at all, for the greed of man destroys everything.
While not being that unlucky if compared to the examples already provided, I'd say the Papal States. In the Middle Ages they had enough power/influence to challenge the Holy Roman Emperor, until the King of France invaded. Relatively powerful during the Renaissance (Alexander VI and Julius II)... Fell victim to Napoleon. And finally:
During the Risorgimento and afterwards a moderately large territory dominating the centre of Italy was reduced to a tiny city-state. Nonetheless, the Pope still exerts lots of influence, and the Catholic Church seems to be very wealthy.
Btw, China was unlucky enough... I know of no other country in history with more peasant uprisings, civil wars, coups d'etat and internal division (which is still the case nowadays)...
During the Risorgimento and afterwards a moderately large territory dominating the centre of Italy was reduced to a tiny city-state. Nonetheless, the Pope still exerts lots of influence, and the Catholic Church seems to be very wealthy.
Btw, China was unlucky enough... I know of no other country in history with more peasant uprisings, civil wars, coups d'etat and internal division (which is still the case nowadays)...
