Unofficially Official Git Balance Discussion Thread

[1SDANi]

-SNIP-

Is the sphinx not possible to get?

 

[1SDANi]

Just played three games and Babylon got Pyramids every time.

If Yerushalayim had less powerful guards so we could pass our Militia through without dying we could raid Babylon until we build them, but even with getting two strength promotions from a hostile village the starting militia has no chance.

I see priests are supposed to be big parts of the Egypt game, seeing as how Egypt starts with the Temple building and the Obelisk has a priest slot. I'm not sure if it'd help with getting Pyramids or Sphinx but if I were to say the first random thought that came to mind, the Obelisk could give +1 Production to Priests. Though again I'm not sure how useful that'd be.

Maybe if Egypt could get their Quarries out faster it might help them get their wonders faster. The only thing I can think of is having them start with Caste System or Manorialism, but I don't think that'd be too historical.

Probably the easiest fix would be to make Babylon not want to build the Sphinx or Pyramids.

TBH I don't think there's many good ways to fix this problem, Babylon just has way better land value than Egypt, and both civs starting techs just exacerbate the issue.

 

[Mxzs]

The Sphinx is of no help, because it has the same problem as the Pyramids -- Babylon will get it first if they want it.

* If Babylon goes for the Sphinx, they will get it and you'll be better off aiming for the Pyramids (and you'll get them).
* If Babylon does not go for the Sphinx, they will go for the Pyramids -- and they will probably get the Pyramids before you even get the Sphinx.

On page 2 of this thread, I reported:

I found that on Regent, if you gave the Egyptians Pottery as a starting tech, and if the player strained after every possible hammer at the earliest possible moment -- building a Worker, building a Temple and hiring a priest, working the Stone, Marble and Horse tiles after reaching Size 4 and researching Pastoralism, running the Slavery tech ... Well, then the Egyptian player could build the Pyramids on Turn 37, beating the best Babylonian run I've seen by one turn. But as I say, that required micromanagement AND Pottery as a starting tech. That was on Regent. On Monarch, I don't think you can get the Pyramids before Turn 44, which means on Monarch it will still be a matter mostly of luck whether you get the Pyramids.

Well, Leoreth gave the Egyptians Pottery ... but at the same time he took away Mining (the other prereq for Masonry), leaving Egypt exactly where it was before. I don't know why he did this -- it seems to make no difference (either positive or negative) to Egypt's position and it doesn't create any interesting early complications.

 

[Ecthy]

It isn't so hard to stop the Babylonians from beating you to those wonders as egypt. First research tanning, build an archer, he will walk past Jerusalem without pestering, especially if accompanied by the two militias you build beforehand. With this small stack, you can destroy Babylon's quarries and pester them for a while, although your units might get killed at some point by Asharittus or barbs. Be sure to conver that wooded hills tile.

Then you can go for masonry and build both the Sphinx and Pyramids - unless the Chinese beat you to either of these.

 

[1SDANi]

What if Egypt spawned with mining and a slave? Is it possible to add an extra starting unit?

EDIT: Yep, a quick look at the scenario files answered that question. Let's see if this helps.

 

[Ecthy]

Oh I forgot, starting techs might have been changed since I last played Egypt. That Leoreth...

 

[1SDANi]

If egypt started with Tanning, they'd be a bit better at keeping Babylon from building the wonders currently I can't seem to keep up with their production of Archers while also getting a worker and temple. The extra early game archer this would allow would let me have one unit on each quarry location.

EDIT: Oh wow, with 2 militias on a quarry and 1 archer on another Babylon won't risk attacking them

 

[1SDANi]

My gameplan for Egypt is currently:

Found 1 south of marble
(Not going to go for goodie huts to ensure consistency between attempts)
Build Militia and Research Tanning
1 turn spent on Temple
Build Archer and Research Mining
Send Archer and both Militias to Babylon, Militias on southern quarry zone, Archer northern quarry zone
Build Militia and station in city when done for happiness

After that I've been experimenting with followups, but this is currently a solid start, I never need to send anyone else to babylon to get a worker, a second city, sphinx and pyramids up in time if the followups are done correctly, but I've yet to find a way of getting the Oracle before them. I've yet to try to send backups after making Sphinx.

If you try to build both of the culture buildings before the wonders China will beat you to them, not sure how viable one or the other alone is.

EDIT: One long game later and I was able to get Sphinx, Pyramids, Oracle, and Lighthouse in time, but only just got the Library at the time limit. I definitely did not play optimumly, so take that as you will. Though I always got the wonders I went for.

 

[1SDANi]

New starting Techs for both Egypt and Babylonia, honestly I like the egyptian change. Temples are never needed early game anyways. As for Babylon, I don't think it'll make much of a difference what with their UP.

EDIT: Thanks @Leoreth for the change, does this mean I won't need to invade Babylon if played right?

EDIT AGAIN: Was looking through my google drive account, apparently I made this avatar a year or so ago.

 

[Mxzs]

Thanks @Leoreth for the change, does this mean I won't need to invade Babylon if played right?

On Regent with the change I don't think you'll need to fight Babylon for the Pyramids. I just did a test game on that level, and I beat the Babylonians even though they were also aiming for them. It was a close run thing. I opened WorldBuilder to check what they were up to on the turn before I built them. They were 9 hammers from completing them ... and they were producing 8 hammers a turn. On Monarch I'm pretty sure an invasion would be necessary to guarantee getting that Wonder. (Unless, of cou

I also did a test game as Babylon. A Regent victory is still possible for them.

- fixed improvement happiness/health change in cities when improvements are built, destroyed or upgraded

So, is it intended for cottages on Flood Plains to cause unhealthiness? Each cottage on a Flood Plain adds one Unhealthiness to the city's score?

EDIT: Okay, I figured it out. It's villages and towns, right? Building them causes unhealthiness, and working them adds another unhealthiness. Which leads to, uh, "interesting" results for Egypt and Babylon if you cottage the flood plains.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, villages and towns, as well as mines and workshops. Do you see additional unhealth from cottages on flood plains, besides what the flood plains add themselves?

 

[Mxzs]

Yes, villages and towns, as well as mines and workshops. Do you see additional unhealth from cottages on flood plains, besides what the flood plains add themselves?

No, it's working the way you want it to work. But I built Akhetaten and cottaged all about it. It grew to size 6, then rapidly collapsed to size 2 as the villages came online. The combination of general flood plains unhealth plus the new mechanic seems to put a heavy lid on the Nile/Mesopotamian civs -- either accept curtailed population levels or forgo cottaging the flood plains, which is a real blow to their revenues.

 

[Leoreth]

That's severe. The improvement unhealth should only come into play when it is worked, is that the case? I would assume that once the city shrinks in size by 1-2 pop the health would equalise.

 

[youtien]

New Thai UP is OP. I can easily catch up in tech, build galleons and settle NA before 1600 AD.

 

[Mxzs]

That's severe. The improvement unhealth should only come into play when it is worked, is that the case? I would assume that once the city shrinks in size by 1-2 pop the health would equalise.

I'll come back with numbers for you so you can make an informed judgement.

 

[Mxzs]

Whew, this is pretty complicated stuff, and it's not helped by the fact that I think I ran into some bugs while playing with cities in the World Builder. The health stats on the test cities started going berserk, which made comparisons difficult because strange health bonuses would crop up when I wasn't watching.

There's lots of variables at work here, because it's not as simple as building a city improvement that causes a health hit, and there will be real-game complications like whether there's a mine included in the city's radius. But here are some extremes to show what cottaging (or, more precisely, villaging and towning) does to a Nile Valley city.

Akhetaten is probably the most extreme city that this kind of thing can happen to, as it has so many flood plains in its radius. At one extreme: If you do not build cottages or mines, Akhetaten can support a maximum population of 11. If you build villages on every flood plain and build a gold mine, it can support a maximum population of 2.

Basically, the way it seems to work out in the Nile is this: Building and running a village is the terrain equivalent of changing the Flood Plain tile into a Plains tile, but without the hammer. [Imagine if building a town changed a Grasslands plot into a Desert plot. It's the same net destruction of food resources.] It goes from being a tile that can support its worker to one that must be subsidized by surpluses drawn from elsewhere. In the Nile there aren't many surpluses. Consequently, a city like Akhetaten is going to either be very large while generating very little coin (one per tile worked) until Watermills and Windmills come along, or it is going to be leaving a LOT of fallow ground about as it works a couple of towns.

Matters are less extreme as you get closer to the delta, as there are fewer Flood Plains tiles. But I'm going to have to do a more rigorous test than plugging some abstract cities into the World Builder to see what the real-game consequences are.

 

[youtien]

That's 3000 BC m/n Thai game. I get 3600+ beakers with 100% research.

Whether you play 3000 BC or 600 AD, beeline exploration, settle Phillipine and America(you can possibly get conqueror). Once you get colonialism, you'll easily be tech leader.

 

[Mxzs]

On the Thai thing, I'll just note that AI Thai is also prone to getting to the Americas. I think in every Chinese test game I've done, the Thai have been the first to circumnavigate the world, and they almost always conquer/vassalize the Aztecs and/or the Inca.

 

[Leoreth]

There's a nerf to the Thai UP incoming, I will also look at Tributaries and Colonialism later on.

There's lots of variables at work here, because it's not as simple as building a city improvement that causes a health hit, and there will be real-game complications like whether there's a mine included in the city's radius.

What do you mean by that?

 

[youtien]

So this is the ridiculous 600 AD Thai game. Conquer Pagan = early secularism = Versailles + Taj Mahal