Upcoming Poll - Tech

[Sommerswerd]

THIS IS A UPCOMING POLL ALERT - FOR DISCUSSION ON THE ISSUE PLEASE USE THE APPROPRIATE THREAD

Im thinking that the best way to handle polls on major issues is to first post an alert ahead of time, to let our team know that a poll is coming soon, so that folks have a chance to read the threads, conduct tests, do research, engage in discussion etc. I will try to do this prior to every poll. There has already been substantial discussion on this issue and we have to decide soon. Future polls will have more advance notice.

Poll:
What Shall We Tech Next?

Posts on this thread should be limited to:
1. Ideas for the Wording of the Poll
2. Ideas for the Choices on the Poll
3. Ideas for how long the poll should stay open
4. Ideas for the Date the poll should be posted
5. Opposition to polling the issue (simple yes or no with reasons if necessary)
6. Approval of polling the issue (simple yes or no with reasons if necessary)
7. 's (or turnplayer's) warning that poll must be posted immediately

FOR ALL OTHER ISSUES, USE THE APPROPRIATE THREAD Please note that Approval or Opposition to the poll will not necessarily affect whether the poll is posted.

Appropriate Thread for Discussion:
Leonardo's Workshop (The Tech Thread)

If the poll is due and I am unavailable to post it will decide to post (or not post the poll).

We currently have our research set to Aesthetics, however, the tech slider is set to 0%, while we build up gold (for research and other reasons). There is a great deal of discussion and debate over what tech we will actually go for next, so a poll MAY be needed.

 

[Kaleb]

We should definitely keep tech at 0% this turn, so we have at least 3 days I would reckon before we must decide what we need to tech next.

 

[cav scout]

Choices should be Aesthetics, Metal Casting or Masonry->Monotheism.

 

[Provolution]

Yes, we should poll this, enough people want all three to warrant a poll.

 

[donsig]

Yes, we should poll this, enough people want all three to warrant a poll.

I don't think we need a poll. I think we're pretty much in agreement that we want masonry and monotheism next. Who wants to do aesthetics or metal casting before trying to deprive everyone of Judaism?

 

[Provolution]

donsig, I am for Monotheism first, but you will be surprised what kind of proposals that get support here.

 

[Kaleb]

Ok, so let's have a rule that in a poll in order for an option to be considered it needs at least one person to speak up and say they support a particular option. That option can then be included in the poll...

 

[cav scout]

Every proposal should have someone who makes it and someone who seconds it before it is considered.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Every proposal should have someone who makes it and someone who seconds it before it is considered.

Ill take that as a second on Provo's Original proposal, which you can find here. Provo already suggested this but I asked Provo to wait until at least one other person suggested it as well. Since the poll is already ready and it does not involve an in-game issue, I will just go ahead and post it.

 

[donsig]

Choices should be Aesthetics, Metal Casting or Masonry->Monotheism.

I don't think we should include aesthetics or metal casting unless someone actually speaks up and says they intend to vote for them.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think we should include aesthetics or metal casting unless someone actually speaks up and says they intend to vote for them.

I do not feel comfortable with this philosophy... I think 's comment sums it up best...

The thing is that us regulars can follow all of this but for casual followers or new members it must be a nightmare trying to figure out what we're planning.

No wonder none of the new people that joined our team recently have posted!!

We should not be making up rules that exclude people who do not read every single post, every single day... at least not without some open vote on it... at a minimum.

EDIT: Moved the rest of my response to Polls Thread.

At any rate, the time has arrived to put up the poll, so that or Cavscout has some information to act on as far as moving the tech slider when our next turn comes. posted on 3/11 that poll had to go up by 3/14 at absolute latest. We all have a good idea how this is going to come out, but we need to show the rest of the team that we are willing to poll tech and city foundings at least.

I am posting the tech poll now. Of course if this terribly offends anyone the "Polling Rules" thread is still up. We can vote to conduct a series of polls to establish hard and fast polling rules.

 

[donsig]

Ok, so let's have a rule that in a poll in order for an option to be considered it needs at least one person to speak up and say they support a particular option. That option can then be included in the poll...

Is this the 's declaration that resulted on this poll? cavscout is the only one who suggested options and since he suggested all three he can hardly support all three options - or does he get more votes than the rest of us?

Polls should be used when there is a clear difference of opinion that can't be resolved by testing and discussion. It seems clear to me that the discussion about our next tech evolved to the point where we had a general consensus to go for masonry and monotheism. In fact the discussion has already turned to which city we want Judaism to found in. I think this poll will result in a lop-sided victory for masonry-monotheism which will show how unnecessary this poll is.

Sommers, if you want to hone your polling abilities then consider joining the democracy game.

 

[Kaleb]

I don't think we should include aesthetics or metal casting unless someone actually speaks up and says they intend to vote for them.

I agree, there's no point in putting up an option in a poll if no-one has said they actually support such a course of action.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I fully get what folks are saying about the poll options. Some things I am unclear on...

1. Should the supporter of the particular option on the poll be required to post on the poll alert that they want that option included?
Or
2. Should any mention of support for any option on any thread constitute grounds to include it in the poll?

What language should they have to use?
If someone says "I am leaning towards Guilds." Does that mean Guilds goes on the poll?
Which post counts as the operative one? The last day you post or the last minute you post?
Does that mean that all posts in all polls must be read to the minute before the poll is posted? What if people keep posting while I am reading?
What if your post is unclear or could be interpreted to mean two different choices? Do both choices go on the poll or just one?

Regardless of how you answer any of these questions: What is the best way to make sure EVERYONE on the team is aware of these rules? Surely a post buried in the middle of the 2nd page of an 8 page thread will not be read by everyone.

Or maybe the answer is "C'mon Sommers, your'e being too technical. Just read the forums and use your best judgement"... If so then OK, I will keep trying

 

[donsig]

1. Should the supporter of the particular option on the poll be required to post on the poll alert that they want that option included?
Or
2. Should any mention of support for any option on any thread constitute grounds to include it in the poll?

Definitely number 1. If you use the second option then not only is there a risk the someone's remark will go unnoticed but we'll be including many options brought up while we brainstorm that we subsequently disregard as untenable as we discuss and test ideas. As I said before, polls should only be used if we really have a difference of opinion that can't be resolved via testing and discussion.

So use option one and let anyone ask for any options. Sometimes when faced with three or more options some of us may be truly undecided between a couple of them and so we should be allowed to ask for both. We should however try to avoid asking for options that we know we would not vote for.

Of course, next we will get into problems where two similar options lose to a third option even though the combined support for the similar ideas has majority support. Polling is a very tricky business.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Definitely number 1. If you use the second option then not only is there a risk the someone's remark will go unnoticed but we'll be including many options brought up while we brainstorm that we subsequently disregard as untenable as we discuss and test ideas. As I said before, polls should only be used if we really have a difference of opinion that can't be resolved via testing and discussion.

I used to agree with the last point, but I am begining to see that that approach kind sets up a sort of privileged ruling class on the team that is making all the decisions with little or no input from the rest of the team. If other team members feel like they have virtually no input, they will not participate. I can understand why some might want that, I for one do not want that.

The polls we currently have up are a good example of this. Some of the votes on the poll are from folks who have not posted in a long time or who have just joined the team. With out a poll, these folks would not be participating.

All of us... Myself included, have a tendancy to SHARPLY criticize opposition. We sometimes say things that are mean spirited, or downright insulting. That's fine for those of us who can take it, or already have an established presence, but it may be very intimidating for new members, don't you agree? Expecting them to expose themselves to HARSH criticism by posting their opinion or else be ignored is a pretty stiff choice, and IMO a little unfair.

Of course, next we will get into problems where two similar options lose to a third option even though the combined support for the similar ideas has majority support. Polling is a very tricky business.

Yes true, which is why on the polls with more than two choices, I have been putting a note in the poll about a runoff poll, which addresses your concern specifically. Under a runoff system the "true" majority position will always win in the end.

As a final note, I encourage folks to check out the tech poll. One of the alternate choices got a vote. This goes to my point about team mates who are looking forward to a poll, even though they may not be keeping up with the day to day fluctuations of popular opinion. Even more importantly, the poll itself induced the team-mate to go check out the forums, leading to a change of heart (and a poll violation that I will address in another thread).

 

[Sommerswerd]

Choices should be Aesthetics, Metal Casting or Masonry->Monotheism.

@ donsig - This was Cavscout's only post on the poll alert that asked for options on the poll. How should this post be interpreted / included on the poll? The answer can't be... "c'mon Sommers you know Cavscout wants Masonry," unless you want option 2 (where I read ALL the threads down to the last minute to figure out what options folks support) or you want me to just use my best judgment about what should be on the poll, regardless of what gets posted on the poll alert.

When you say option 1, you are saying that ONLY what is said on the poll thread can be considered. If that is the rule then I think you have to put all three options, given Cavscout's post.

Again, maybe you just want a "best judgment" determination?

Or, maybe you want a system which tends to lean AGAINST polling in general. If this is the case, I respectfully disagree, and I also respectfully submit to you that this is an ideological difference between us, not a logical one. Neither of us is necessarily "right." Polls are not good or bad. I want more polls, you want less polls, we can probably just leave it at that, since there is no way to resolve that difference.

The polling rules thread is still up. Folks can vote to make polling more or less difficult to occur with their vote.

 

[donsig]

Or, maybe you want a system which tends to lean AGAINST polling in general. If this is the case, I respectfully disagree, and I also respectfully submit to you that this is an ideological difference between us, not a logical one. Neither of us is necessarily "right." Polls are not good or bad. I want more polls, you want less polls, we can probably just leave it at that, since there is no way to resolve that difference.

Yes, I want to avoid polls as much as possible. I agree polls are not good and bad per se but there are bad polls and good polls. Believe me, bad polls can play havoc with a team.

@ donsig - This was Cavscout's only post on the poll alert that asked for options on the poll. How should this post be interpreted / included on the poll? The answer can't be... "c'mon Sommers you know Cavscout wants Masonry," unless you want option 2 (where I read ALL the threads down to the last minute to figure out what options folks support) or you want me to just use my best judgment about what should be on the poll, regardless of what gets posted on the poll alert.

I think cavscout's post was not intended to show what options he supported but was more of a "if sommersword is gonna post a poll no matter what, then I guess we should include these options" kind of post. I can't speak for him but this is my take on the matter. I suggest in the future we use the poll announcement thread to gather formal requests for poll options. If we stick to requesting only options we would actually vote for then we will have much better polls

I used to agree with the last point, but I am begining to see that that approach kind sets up a sort of privileged ruling class on the team that is making all the decisions with little or no input from the rest of the team. If other team members feel like they have virtually no input, they will not participate. I can understand why some might want that, I for one do not want that. :

Remember we are a team trying to win a game against other teams of humans. We've been successful this far because we've based our decisions on testing and discussion, not on polls. If we want to continue our success then we must use our time and energy to do more testing, not more polling.

 

[cav scout]

I just put those 3 options up for consideration because it looked like a poll was going to happen and those options were the ones that people had been talking about. If someone had been talking about teching sailing I would have included that as well.

For the record I do want Masonry but I have and will continue to advocate for positions contrary to my own (including drawing up dotmaps) in the spirit of open discussion. But if we are headed in the direction of a confrontational legalistic system then I will just keep my mouth shut about the good ideas of others in order to win my position at all costs.

Also note that my original post of choices was made before we got into this long discussion about the appropriate use of polling in general and should not be made to reflect on that discussion.