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Upgrade for scouts

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CYZ, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    1. Explorer
    Same as a scout but with 3 moves andthe ability to see through any obstacles that normally block sight. Comes in the late medieval (perhaps navigation, depends on new tech tree. 10 strength, +50% against barbarians.

    2. Balloon
    A new unit, the first flying unit in the game. It can't attack and is always killed by any interception from AA or other air units. It does have a long range recon ability. This way it can be used to scout into the territory of other civs or just keep a check on your surroundings. It can also be used for exploration by basing it in far away CS. Every time it does a recon flight it has a small chance to totally disappear. This unit comes in the early rennaisance.

    While the explorer is able to explore uncharted territory anywhere on the globe, it's sight radius is not so big to make it optimal for scouting out neighbouring civs. The balloon is perfect for this goal, as it has a large sight radius and can't be destroyed untill fighters/aa comes around. The balloon isn't very good at standard exploration because it needs a city to be based in and can't collect ruins.

    3. Commando
    Comes around the WWII period. Weaker than units of it's era, relatively expensive. 4 movement total. May move after attacking. Ignores ZOC. Pillaging doesn’t use movement points. Ignores terrain movement costs. Is a scout and gets scout promotions.

    This unit is best at getting behind enemy lines, pillaging and distracting forces. Or trying to get artillery units and such. Too expensive/weak for direct combat.

    4. Great Explorer
    Like with GG points, you gain GEX point by discovering tiles that were previously undiscovered. The GEX has 3 moves, a very high sight radius and a very high retreat chance. It also ignores ZoC and gives adjacent units +2 sight. It also gets double yields from finding Natural Wonder, City States and barbarian camps. When it takes a ruin you get two ruin bonusses instead of just one. Like all GP it has two unique abilities:
    * Mapping: This explores a very large radius around the GEX (15 tiles). The GEX is expended.
    * Outpost: This improvement has no special yields but it has a sight radius of 7. It might also help with espionage in some way. The GEX is expended.

    When focussing on exploring you will easily earn a GEX, it will help you explore more and recieve bigger rewards for it or allow you to keep eyes out in your territory.

    Upgrade paths
    Scout->Explorer->Commando
    Balloon->Helicopter Gunship (possibly something else depending on new G&K units.
     
  2. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Nice idea, but remember the explorer from Civ4? Who ever built any of those? Fighters are more than good enough for reconnaisance.
     
  3. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    True, that's why the explorers get an additional movement and ofcourse upgraded strength so they don't get oneshotted by barbs. They will be good for scouting later in the game, but useless if everything is scouted early. In new world maps they will be usefull, though might need real millitary back-up.

    As for the recon unit, that's why I would give them +1 sight to adjacent units. That will make them usefull, and an alternative to airplanes which have limited range, come later and also have a better use (attacking enemies). If that isn't enough they could perhaps also see accross any obstacles such as forests, mountains and hills.

    I'm convinced there's room for three usefull scouts, one for the early, middle and late game. It would fix the current dead-end track scouts have. Plus, with several promotions these units could be really nice.
     
  4. sukritact

    sukritact Artist and Modder

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    Don't forget that they'll be much more useful in Civ V without map trading. Especially on maps like Pangaea where naval units can only do so much of the exploring.
     
  5. Kurtbob

    Kurtbob Prince

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    I don't know if I want explorers and other scouting units if they mimic the scout too much. It’s already been said, but I don't think I would build them if that were the case. I would build them if they have unique abilities. For example: Explorers should have +1 site, duh, and a bonus vs. barbarians. Reconnaissance could increase bombardment damage from industrial/modern era units while within line of site (spotting). A bonus on rough terrain would also suit them.

    An upgrade line of ‘light infantry’ could also be implemented to give scouting promotions longevity. Scouts, auxillarie, light infantry, reconaissance, etc (well, something along those lines). Though, this line would come into conflict with mounted units, the real reconaissance units before the enlightenment.
     
  6. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    Yup, especially on larger maps there is much unexplored terrain. You can use horse units but they require horses, are more expensive and suck in rough terrain. So I see the explorer as usefull. However, a bonus against barbarians seems logical, after all, they will be used mainly for exploring the new world.

    I wouldn't underestimate the recon ability to give +1 sight and the ability to see through any terrain to adjacent units. If you have an infantry next to a hill or forest, you can just put the recon unit behind it and the infantry can see several tiles behind the hill/forest, but your enemy still can't see you. That's a really big tactical advantage. These recon units will make perfect healers as well. (I see a UU with a medic promotion :p)

    Also remember, you might not even have to build these units. They can be upgraded cheaply from scouts, with promotions and everything :)

    Scout: as it is
    Explorer: +1 move, +25% when defending against barbarians (carries over if upgraded)
    Recon: +2 move, +1 sight and ability to see through any terrain to adjacent units
     
  7. MARDUK80

    MARDUK80 Prince

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    @ CYZ

    I like your Scout upgrade ideas. I, for one, have been hoping for some kind of new Recon unit for a long time. One Recon unit for the whole game just isn't enough. Eventhough Caravels are great for exploration I feel there should be at least one more. Earlier I suggested new land unit, Explorer, but lately I feel a Recon air unit for medieval/renaissance era would be the best.


    Here is my Balloon unit idea I posted sometime ago in another thread:



    What do you think about it? I should emphasize I am talking about (Hot Air) Balloon type unit, not Zeppelins.


    The unit should look like this:

    Spoiler :











    Heh, looks like I got too excited about it (judging from number of the pictures), but they do give nice general idea. Last picture 'bout the random dropping I am taliking about... :)
     
  8. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    Well, I think the idea is really nice. But the random dropping don't make it very good as an explorer unit. Also, the idea of a balloon exploring the other side of the planet, filled with hostile tribes and whatnot, seems a bit odd. So for the scout upgrade path I like my own idea better.

    Still though, the balloon could be a very good recon unit. It's perfect for scouting out other civs, something the scout upgrades cannot really do. It would also be better in a war, where you can keep the balloon at a safe distance and still see pretty far.

    So, they don't exclude each other. Scout->explorer->recon for the units that are meant mainly to scout faraway (though the recon can also funtion within an army fairly well in the later eras). Then the balloon can be used for scouting out the territory of other civs and creating oversight during a battlefield, this role later being replaced by fighters.
     
  9. Montov

    Montov King

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    I think scouts needs to be removed. Just like there is no medic, we only need scouting promotions. There are already scouting promotions, so the easiest way is to apply those to melee units. Some improvements can be made to those promotions, like combining sight and movement bonuses in 1 promotion.

    But if the scout is here to stay, I have another suggestion:
    Increase the effect of scouts through the tech tree instead of new (repetitive) units. Getting Compass, Navigation and Telegraph increases movement and sight for scouts. So you would get 5 movement, 6 radius sight scouts at the end. Useful in wars for visibility (and maybe a level 5 medic promotion as well), but they occupy a tile and are vulnerable. Only problem is getting XP later on...
     
  10. theis81

    theis81 Warlord

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    I would add some embarked bonus to explorer and reconnaisance. +1 sight and free disembark like the danes.

    Explorer should be given the ability to hide in forest/jungle as suggested earlier, but spotted by units starting their turn next to it.

    The reconnaisance unit should be given ability to hide everywhere, but another recon unit should be able to spot the unit as well as units starting their turn next to it.
     
  11. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    Well, the main issue is that their strength does not scale. Thus an actual upgrade to a new unit, with the suggested bonusses, makes more sense. It'd also be strange since all units stats are changed via upgrades, why do it through the techtree for scouts?
     
  12. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    I don't think the hiding part is a good idea. Not even sure if it is possible for land units but it's something a human could easily exploit while an AI can't. (for example hiding them near an enemy before a war and using them to steal workers/plunder strategic resources).

    The explorer will already have 1 more move than units from it's era, and 1 more sight than the scout, then it can be topped off either a bonus against barbarians or being able to see through obstacles. I favor the last and will update the OP.
     
  13. MARDUK80

    MARDUK80 Prince

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    My idea behind the random (rarely) dropping was to balance the unit a bit. Just like the early naval units in CivIII (iirc) would sometimes sunk when in deep ocean and SMAC had the Chopper unit (Chopper; Helicopter, if not returned to refuel will take damage every turn). Perhaps Balloon should have similar effect and need to be "refueled" from friendly (own/CS) cities ever now and then?

    Without that much deeper thinking to the game mechanics, I do not see it that odd to Balloon exploring the whole Planet. Only Barbarian or hostile CS ranged units could target it, Balloon could not benefit from Ancient Ruins but would be able to spot them, find resources, good city spots, find natural wonders and map the polar regions completely. This is not possible with other recon units. Also being able to cross mountain regions is a big plus.

    When not exploring, you could use a few Balloons near your borders and allied City States to detect hostile units and give line of sight for your siege/ranged units and city bombardment. Naturally Americans would have +1 sight with Balloons giving it huge sight radius.

    But yeah, as scout upgrade path, explorers are must have. But like you said, their addition does not exclude the Balloon unit.

    A long time ago I had some kind of idea for Great Explorer a new GP unit. But can't remember it's bonuses. Perhaps this could take the role after Scouts? Every explored hex counts as one point (like combat points for Great General) and when you have suffient amount of exploration points, the Great Explorer will appear to one of your cities. Perhaps it could "transform" itself to Balloon unit (thus giving the unit ability to land and use Ancient Ruins fe.) and the go back to airborne. Naturally it could build it's own improvement, say Cartographer building (list of cartographers), for example. :)



    Yeah, this is a big plus for the Recon units in CiV. I feel the map trading would muchly ruin the fun of early exploration, but a Balloon unit for mid game would be kind of easy replacement for that.
     
  14. KiffeLesBiffles

    KiffeLesBiffles Do you like dogs?

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    Please No scout upgrade. And no scout anymore in later era.

    In MP, When you reach Artillery, you only do 3 types of units :
    - Artillery
    - Lancer, to kill ennemy artilleries
    - Scout, to block lancer, to give you sight for to shoot, to take cities.

    They are so cheap, you can do one every turn in a low production city, and they are so annoying...
     
  15. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    I think I'll add the balloon unit to the OP. But if it really is an air unit it must be based in a city no? Otherwise it's like the helicopter. Which could work, but if they can't be attacked does that mean melee units cannot enter the same tile, but also cannot attack them?

    I see a possible problem there. Perhaps a 100% retreat chance when attacked by melee units?


    Here's an alternative:

    Air unit, and thus based in a city like other air units.
    It can't attack but it can do a recon run within a decent range and revealling a very large area. However, this ability has a small chance to make the balloon disappear.

    This way the balloon won't really be able to explore far away from your empire, but it's perfect for keeping an eye on nearby civs and enemy armies. It's not a perfect historic representation, I agree.


    As for the GE, I love the idea, but what exactly would it do? Would it be a unit with alot of movement and sight and a retreat chance? What would be it's improvement and what would that do/yield? Also, it doesn't really seem to match, every GP (except the GG) are tied to a certain yield. I'm not saying it's not possible but I don't really see what it would be.
     
  16. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    A scout upgrade would fix this...

    By then you can build the recon unit (which means you cannot build a scout or explorer, just like you can't build a warrior anymore). The recon unit will cost more to produce so they won't spam the map, also they are somewhat stronger so they won't die as easily. This means they can get promotions and thus you don't want to use them as cannon food but get them promoted.

    Also, only using 3 unittypes seems hard to believe. I've read different stories elsewhere, though I don't play MP. Perhaps you and the people you play with need new strategies??
     
  17. KiffeLesBiffles

    KiffeLesBiffles Do you like dogs?

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    Yes, if they are more expensive maybe it would fix it. because scout is the only unit going from Anciant to Industrial era !

    Well, this is strategy of top C5P players. I am exagerating using only 3 units, maybe few cavalery also. When you have tanks, you do builds tanks as well. But if you arty rush, this strategy can last 30 turns (quick speed).
     
  18. CYZ

    CYZ Toileteer

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    I see. Well, instead of scoutspam you will now have just a few recon units. They are more expensive, but do have promotions if they've been upgraded from scouts/explorers. Also, they can actually move faster, see further and also see through rough terrain. So you don't need as many for them to have the same function. They're also worth killing, especially promoted ones. Because they can't be build in just 1 turn (though they won't be superexpensive either ofcourse).
     
  19. MARDUK80

    MARDUK80 Prince

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    Nice if you could add it to the OP :goodjob:

    I was thinking it would not be like regular Air Unit (based in a city) but more like the Helicopter unit. Perhaps Balloons could be upgraded to Helicopters eventually. As they would became available quite early (by Physics).

    "Ranged Combat only (Cannot be melee attacked by enemy units), Ranged strength 5."

    This was the Balloon combat ability idea by me and Pouakai in his compilation thread. Yes, melee units cannot attack them but can enter the tile because Balloons 100% retreat chance when attacked by melee units (love your idea). :)



    I like this idea as well. They could explore quite far away from your empire if based in allied city state cities. Though this would require that you would have quite many of them to get a far. Kind of like step by step. Recon Run is a nice idea.



    I was thinking the Great Explorer improvement would be the Cartographer building (list of cartographers), for example. Will have to think about the tile Yields. Perhaps giving small amount of gold, science and generating Exploration points (which would count for new GEX to born). Perhaps it could have alot of movement, large sight radius, a high retreat chance, double yields from ancient ruins, finding natural wonders and pillaging barbarian camps. Also giving +1 line of sight to frindly units in adjacent tiles...
     
  20. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Would anybody consider a more combat-oriented upgrade?

    Go Scout --> Explorer just as here (more sight, stronger). But then upgrade to a Guerrilla, which would be a modern combat unit that can compete with Infantry (although weaker) and can still move freely across terrain without penalty.
     

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