Upgrading Crossbowmen and Their Promotions

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BjoernLars

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I was wondering what exactly happens to the promotions of a Crossbowman when they are upgrading to a Rifleman?

Do Accuracy and Barrage become Shock and Drill respectively?

Will Logistics translate to Blitz?

Are Indirect Fire and Range just lost?
 
The ranged promotions become useless.
There are mods who 'translate' these promotions to the correct counterpart, but not in vanilla.
 
Well, that sucks...

To be fair though, if you go from having to aim a bow at the correct angle, power adjusting for wind and all that kind of stuff to going to wearing a bright red jumpsuit with a weapon that can shoot equal/further distance but in a straight line and a much faster speed your previous skills wont be much use =P
 
To be fair though, if you go from having to aim a bow at the correct angle, power adjusting for wind and all that kind of stuff to going to wearing a bright red jumpsuit with a weapon that can shoot equal/further distance but in a straight line and a much faster speed your previous skills wont be much use
Not that it makes any more sense that the skills learned by Longswordsmen would be useful to Riflemen...

They should have modern mobile ranged units, like a Machine Gun or Mortar Team or Grenadiers, both to fill the gap left by the obsolescence of Crossbowmen, and to give them something more appropriate to upgrade to.
 
Not that it makes any more sense that the skills learned by Longswordsmen would be useful to Riflemen...

They should have modern mobile ranged units, like a Machine Gun or Mortar Team or Grenadiers, both to fill the gap left by the obsolescence of Crossbowmen, and to give them something more appropriate to upgrade to.

I like the idea of mortar teams to be honest, I was thinking of them myself earlier, maybe they should be similar to artillery but possibly a bonus against fortified units
 
Siege come quicker to ranged units (30xp) than to melee units (60xp). Though it will take a ranged unit 15 ranged attacks vs 10 melee attacks to get that promo. (not counting any defensive xp)

And Seige can be very useful to riflemen. further the bonuses from accuracy + barrage still apply. They just don't give access to the next level of shock + drill.

Also, i think (!!) if you upgrade a crossbow (with only accuracy1) to a rifle. His next promo (as a rifle) will still give him access to siege. (Not sure about this one -???)
 
They should have modern mobile ranged units, like a Machine Gun or Mortar Team or Grenadiers, both to fill the gap left by the obsolescence of Crossbowmen, and to give them something more appropriate to upgrade to.

Machine gun would be wrong. The invention of the Machine gun made warfare a lot more static until tanks appeared on the field of battle.

The idea of adding new mobile bombard units after the crossbowman has gone obsolete has been mentioned a lot, but I guess that's not the route Firaxis wants to take to game on. I am missing reason for this and I would certainly applaud the addition of new mobile bombard units.

My preference would be
Archer >> Crossbowman >> Light Cannon >> Field Cannon

Perhaps you could have even have both lines join at Rocket Artillery. Or, better even... Have the mobile branch end in Helicopters and give those a bombard (and perhaps a little less movement).
 
The ranged promotions become useless.

That's wrong in my experience. I still see the terrain bonuses in the combat preview.
 
That's wrong in my experience. I still see the terrain bonuses in the combat preview.
The unit retain the promotions, but they apply only to ranged combat, so they don't provide any benefit to a unit that no longer has a ranged attack.

I believe the Siege promotion for ranged units only applies to ranged attacks, so the only available promotion that carries over for a Rifleman is the Cover (that provides defense against ranged attacks). Logistics might also carry over.
 
Not that it makes any more sense that the skills learned by Longswordsmen would be useful to Riflemen...

They should have modern mobile ranged units, like a Machine Gun or Mortar Team or Grenadiers, both to fill the gap left by the obsolescence of Crossbowmen, and to give them something more appropriate to upgrade to.
Mortars certainly have my vote!
 
Not that it makes any more sense that the skills learned by Longswordsmen would be useful to Riflemen...

They should have modern mobile ranged units, like a Machine Gun or Mortar Team or Grenadiers, both to fill the gap left by the obsolescence of Crossbowmen, and to give them something more appropriate to upgrade to.

Don't like Machinegun, but I've suggested Mortars and RPGs as viable candidates. It would require a rebalancing of ranged units overall, though. Grenadiers might be the most logical choice, although there's something particularly unrealistic (even more so than others) with them being ranged units. I would approve of Johan de Witt's Light Cannon idea (something I've thought of in the past - particularly because it evokes Gustavus Adolphus and his success on the European continent).

The idea would be:
Archer --> Crossbowman --> Light Cannon --> Mortar --> RPG
Catapult --> Trebuchet --> Heavy Cannon --> Artillery --> Rocket Artillery

Heavy Cannon could also be "Bombarde"
Logically, it should also require iron. It was the lighter artillery that used copper. Plus, it would fit the balance better.
 
^ Further that idea,

Give mortas bonuses against melee units and a unit promotion that is automatically native to the unit that boosts strength by 15% or increase range by 1 if they are set-up to fire - call it 'line of fire' or sometihng. So you can see these units firing as they go, then fortifying on the hills (ala catapults and trebuchets) to continue firing, but more effectively. I'm leaning towards +1 range as it will work nicely with existing promotions and the AI would probably benefit most from range over attack power.


Give rocket artillery a penalty against melee. To give these new class of units something specialized. Obviously you can still use mortars to attack cities.

I'd scrap the idea of RPGs entirely, but they could come in as a terrorist/rebel;barbarian modern unit, akin to Guerilla in Civ3. But I don't really see a strong place for them. And that sort of leads me into the area of thinking about fixing barb camps (I still like the way its handled in Civ4 best - barb cities, with actual production)
 
Granted that grenadiers as ranged units would not be terribly realistic, but no less so than Archers having greater range than rifles and tanks.

Modern archer-style units shouldn't require any AI changes, as they can use the same AI that archers and crossbowmen do.

Non-sequitur: Tanks should also have a ranged attack. The only thing tanks and cavalry are good for now is as artillery bait.
 
See, I view Mortars having less range is what makes them distinct. Artillery have greater range, but require a move to set up. Mortars can fire instantly, but would only have a range of two. I do like giving it a bonus. Logically, a bonus against fortified units would make a good deal of sense.

The reason I like RPGs are for two reasons. One, they are widely used in the world, especially by forces that don't have the infrastructure to have Tanks and heavy artillery like Rocket Artillery. Second, they continue the line. As much as Crossbows hitting a dead end is annoying, I'd still be annoyed that units stop at the Infantry-level. The very modern units (Mech Inf, etc.) should have a light ranged unit equivalent.

As for distinction, I'd give Rocket Artillery a set-up penalty again. If they don't require aluminum, I'd make them need that as well (I'd probably boost their bombard strength to make up for it, plus they have three moves). Then I'd have RPGs as a cheap ranged unit. The whole idea is you have a bunch of them that do maybe two or three damage each to Mech Inf or Modern Armor, but a bunch hitting at once can catch your opponent by surprise. Pretty similarly to how they're used by the Taliban in Afghanistan really.
 
I like the idea of mortar teams to be honest, I was thinking of them myself earlier, maybe they should be similar to artillery but possibly a bonus against fortified units

Or it just requires coal to upgrade and build it and it has the indirect fire ability like artillery
 
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