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US Capitol Breached

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Jan 6, 2021.

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  1. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    The Tree of Liberty demands fresh blood.

    I understand the letter of the law, I was talking about the spirit of it. Which is, in my understanding, is absence of political censorship.
    As the Soviet joke I brought here illustrate, if you have the right but cannot exercise it, it is basically the same as not having right at all.

    We may not like Trump, but he is still a popular politician with millions of supporters (~40% of the population IIRC?)
     
    The_J likes this.
  2. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Even if we take your claims at face value (which we shouldn't), something doesn't start being moral because the people criticising it may have done something you don't like.

    This post (much like Berzerker's) is making it about what the "opposition" (intentionally in scare quotes because you don't define this group. You're being vague on-purpose) deems "acceptable" so to justify current events. Nah. Either both sets of things are consistently bad, or you're being as bad as the group whose behaviour you're alleging is precedent. But you're picking the best from both as it suits you.

    It's a weak attempt, thankfully.
     
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  3. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    so you believe there IS a fraud yes?
    That may be about 10% of democrats...
    I am not against general republicans BUT I am against ALL of Trumpsters. I am OK with Republicans that are against Trump like Larry Hogan and mitt romney
    and Republicans that are shown in the Lincoln project.
    You know the claim of several Trump supporters that say Antifa was responsible for the failed coup.
     
    caketastydelish likes this.
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The US military slaughtering hundreds of civilians on the barest pretext seems like the surest way to bring about the civil war that internet weirdoes have been fantasising about since the Bush administration.
     
  5. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    Anyway your argument is full of "Appeal to hypocrisy" fallacy.
     
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  6. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    He doesn't have any credibility to lose.
     
  7. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    :lol:
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    That page you linked doesen't support your lies in the slightest. It has ONE post by me which has exactly the same points I am raising now, which are that you are lying, strawmanning, and defending the Klan/nazis as usual. The only difference is that this time you are defending the MAGA coup whereas last time you were attacking BLM.

    Now you're dishonestly and disigenuously trying to pretend your support of MAGA here isn't "support" as if we're all blind to what you've said and the position you've consistently taken.

    Dont try to hide behind forum rules or mods. They aren't going to save you from your lies and misrepresentations about me. You've been caught in a lie once again, and caught defending the indefensible.
     
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  9. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Hi, I'm late to the game, but I don't see caketastydeliah's original post (buried under 58 pages) calling for lethal force against the insurrectionists. However, I agree with it. Is the forum allowing that?

    It's a kill-or-be-killed situation, and that is exactly what 2nd amendment, capital punishment (for both murder and treason), etc. is all about. It's an openly armed rebellion against democracy, and it needs to be quelled. A soft tiptoeing on eggshells response only enrages them. Force needs to meet force, the good guy with the gun needs to reckon the bad guy with the gun. A capitol police force with automatic weapons would not have stoked war--it would only have hastened a less lethal version of it (though it may be hard to believe a trove of dead bodies and trump flags on the capitol lawn would be somehow less lethal). "Not advocating violence" can only be taken so far. They are openly talking about killing police and federal officials, and if anybody thinks they are going to disarm that with some "war of words", they are being no more honest with themselves than the idiot "stop the steal" people.
     
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  10. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I am undecided about lethal force against the coup attempt. On the one hand, @Traitorfish is spot on that gunning them down would have only lead to more violence. On the other hand, stopping an armed insurrection from taking the capital is exactly the situation the army was invented for. Had these been Chinese soldiers tomorrow or Confederates in 1865, we wouldn't be worrying about their right to a fair trial and instead would have responded to it as the invasion it was.

    I am all for due process and I am against lethal force against protestors. Its just that this is a weird edge case and I think at the very least we should acknowledge it as such rather than put these guys on the same moral footing as BLM protestors and/or rioters.

    And the irony of course is that while people try and equivocate between these insurrectionists and BLM protesters, the truth is that they weren't treated the same - there were no tanks and overwhelming, confrontational, armed response until well after they were in the building.

    In the end I don't think these guys should have been shot on the spot, but I do think
    that would have been justified.
     
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  11. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Lethal force wasn't needed. What was needed was an adequate police and National Guard presence at the Capitol.
    Agree that its now a matter for due process.
    Sadly the instigators will probably be allowed to walk away as if nothing happened.
    Hopefully Trump will be impeached just so his role in this is on the record.
     
  12. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    The insurrectionists are looking for a soft target. If you harden one, they will only go elsewhere. We had the chance to round the thugs up all up in one place and remove the threat (and if lethal force was not required--great--but the bottom line is that the threat could have been easily removed at that point in time, and it wasn't), and that's going to come back to bite several innocent lives later.

    That being said, it was not a bad political move. They allowed thugs to roam the hall, prioritizing the cops' safety, but when they came to enter the chamber where the officials were, pop. And now, even Lindsey Graham and Mike Pence are starting to flip. Almost half of the electoral college objectors repealed their objections. Perdue and Loeffler conceded. It's just that I prefer to act on principle--not politics.
     
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  13. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    That's not true. Over 140 House and Senate members voted to object which s close to the original numbers. Only a few Senators backed down, most went ahead with it.

    ------

    Word is that extremists are planning another attack on Inauguration Day.
     
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  14. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    I'm relieved that the MAGA coup wasn't gunned down en-masse. Even putting aside what @Traitorfish correctly predicted (ie that it would have possibly sparked Civil War), my concern is that those people, misguided as they were, have families, friends, lives outside of this one heinous act they engaged in. Plus, I don't want a freaking massacre on the steps of my nation's Capitol in the history books. The deaths due to their insurrection are tragic. The death toll could have been much higher if the police had not treated them with such restraint and respect.

    I don't at all wish they'd been treated like black people, or BLM protesters during the coup. What I wish, is that law enforcement had been as prepared for them as they were for BLM. I also wish that BLM protesters, and black people in general were treated with the same care, restraint and respect that is shown to MAGA protesters.
     
  15. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I agree. One of the massive problems with law enforcement today is that they're allowed to mishandle situations and manufacture conditions under which they can claim they "had to" shoot someone. I think a few dozen people have already been rounded up, and I imagine there will be hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people being charged with crimes by the time the FBI is done. I mean, these goobers are advertising and celebrating their crimes on social media. We don't need to shoot them, we can just wait for them to be stupid and then arrest them, which won't take long.

    Right. The lesson to be learned from how the MAGA protesters were handled is not that excessive force should be used against everybody.
     
  16. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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  17. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Me too. I'm just saying it would have been justified and also pointing out the false equivocating going on by the coups defenders.

    One of the protestors complained to a journalist that the cops knew what was coming and should have been better prepared. This seems to have been his excuse for participating - he wasn't stopped therefore it was ok.
     
  18. sherbz

    sherbz Emperor

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    Ah that old chestnut. No one stopped me so i assumed it was ok. I hear 5 year olds constantly protest this line in the playground where i work. Seems some people never really get to the point in life where they are willing to take responsibility for their actions.
     
  19. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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  20. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    It seems to me like there's really two layers to wednesday events - what the protesters on the ground where aiming to achieve (largely, to scare and possibly avenge themselves for perceived wrongs perpetrated by congress against them), and what the people who encouraged and stoked the movement wanted.

    These folks certainly appeared (which may be the key word) like they were attempting to actually subvert the political institutions to allow their faction to illegitimately retain power past the end of their term of office.They may not have believed it would work, but they at the very least wanted it to appear like they were trying, either for general image reasons or because their actual plans are longer term and they believe that showing their resolve to retain power now serve those long term plan. . In that vein, *they* likely stoked the fires of wednesday's events as part of their efforts - but did not organize it themselves.

    So on one level, you have an insurrection that wasn't, in itself, a coup, but was influenced and stoked by people who actually did appear to attempt a self-coup - but one that may have been meant more for showmanship/political theater than for actual immediate results. (And quite potentially, different participants had different takes on whether the attempt was showmanship or meant to succeed).

    So something like a staged self-coup.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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