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US Capitol Breached

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Jan 6, 2021.

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  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The District of Columbia was formed from land taken from Maryland and Virginia for the express purpose of establishing the capital " by cession of particular states". Any attempt of reducing the size of the capital will obviously raise the issue of returning this territory to the original states. To pretend that a new mini-state can be instead created from it will take redistricting to a whole new level, now to undermine the purpose of the senate in constitutional order. If those states can be split, why not others?
    It's not my problem fortunately. But even I can see how should it pass moves and countermoves afterwards will produce something like the House of Lords in the UK before recent reforms, with each new government stuffing it with its supporters.
    Nothing would actually be gained and a lot of political attention would be spent (diverted from) on fights (political theatrics) that are irrelevant to the real issues that matter to the population of the country.

    But the executive is about to be changed now. Has the legislature in the US ever taken powers back from the executive? What has happened to the authorization for the use of voice passed with a lone opposing vote against in the senate in the aftermath of 9/11? It's still in effect. What about the Patriot Act?
    It was these very same people who did that who are still occupying most of those seats. They're entirely predictable.

    Now it's a good time to read Marx's 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte...
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Perhaps we should round up all of these gun toting Trumpers who want to support democracy and ship them places like Syria, Venezuela, Afghanistan, Hong Kong etc. so they can shoot their guns, loot, shout USA! USA!, and wave their flags for real. They already have all the guns and equipment they need. Imagine 250,000 of them storming the Presidential palace in Caracas! Maybe they could even install Trump as the new President!
     
  3. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    There would be no much difference with what you have been doing last 70 years.
     
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  4. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    As I've alluded to previously, I think all this bloviating and hand-wringing about not using the word "coup" is a pointless distinction without a difference, at best... ego-stroking pseudo-academia for-its-own-sake, in the middle... and desperate disingenous downplaying by closet allies of the cause, at worst.

    In other words... bad... and unhelpful... in all cases.
     
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  5. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    True, but this time we would be sending enthusiastic citizens rather than the military and it would remove a dangerous local faction to foreign soil. :)
     
  6. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    The US does have a problem in attempting to install puppets like Guaido, the locals refuse to vote for them. Hence the american tradition of shipping its state goons aka army to do it.

    But not to worry, with the US also exporting "social media", that may change. The idea is to do it cheaper with locally raised goons. Cheaper! Seems to have succeeded in some places already.

    What's that saying about chicken coming home to roost?

    Here's the puppet doing his assault on the capitol thing per the Washington playbook for coups abroad. Notice the size of the crown of supporters behind...
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  7. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    The Twitter moderators say that “plans for future armed protests have already begun proliferating on and off-Twitter,
    including a proposed secondary attack on the US Capitol and state capitol buildings on January 17, 2021.”

    That's a worry!

    They're even getting ready to protect those vulnerable areas with buffalo horns next time!
    buffhorns.png
     
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  8. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Put it this way: who does calling the circus of January 6th "an attempted coup" benefit?

    Congressional Democrats, who can refuse all criticism for at least the next two years on the grounds that they are the last line of defence against an incipient fascist putsch.

    Congressional Republicans, who have now been provided license to separate themselves from the toxic husk of the Trump administration without sacrificing their electoral base.

    The security state, who have a whole new suit of insurrectionists and enemies to justify every-expanding powers and budgets.

    The media-industrial complex, who have an exciting new spectacle to take up air-time, and for pundits to endless dissect and re-dissect.

    Does it help working class Americans? Does it help them understand the economic or political apparatus which confronts them? Does it provide them with an avenue towards achieving substantial, lasting change in their country? Or does it simply present politics as even more alien, mystifying and hostile than it was previously?

    Follow the money, sorta thing.
     
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  9. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    IOW, Rupert Murdoch could call it a banana and then laugh all the way to the bank.
     
  10. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    This is not the same argument as your previous.
     
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  11. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Like, literally the reason we have almost a third of the states we have to is to "add new Senators to undermine the purpose of the Senate in the Constitutional order". And yet the world keeps turning.

    Which is just the same M.O. they've been using since, what, 1960-something? Vote for us, because otherwise the Republicans get in?

    45% of the Republican electoral base supports what happened on the 6th. Calling it an attempted coup, or not, won't change their calculus one bit.

    Again, calling this a coup or not won't change the basic issues there. The security state was hardly poised for drastic reduction in funding, power, or prestige before the 6th.

    Whether this is called a coup or not will not change the media being sensational about it.

    In a way, though, all the above argument is beside the point because I don't care "who benefits." I'm calling it an attempted coup simply because that's what it was.

    How silly of me not to realize that refusing to call this a coup would lead to a working-class political awakening...
     
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  12. Angst

    Angst Rambling and inconsistent

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    I've kind of been enjoying reading certain responses to the last four years around the internet. Black bars for forum reasons.

    upload_2021-1-9_21-10-55.png

    No, I'm not using this as a representative of any argument, neither is it a response to any poster here. I just wanted to share. It's usually useful talking about a position framing it in the best way possible when you want to talk about it. It's just that the internet is having a seizure and there is some dark humor to enjoy in the absurdity.

    Truly the best of mankind going on right now. /s
     
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  13. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    You would be a right pal with Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer.

    You have no idea what a civil war, or even widespread bloody repression, is like. Nations do not just "move forward" afterwards.

    I too am not convinced of that point. While this particular mob was in no way able to do or even thinking of a coup, there is a huge pool of deeply dissatisfied people who have little to lose. They seem removed from politics, lost in personal worries now, few would have been in this mob. But tens of millions of Trump's votes must have come from them so they're not indifferent, not completely apathetic. Trump, most of us here agree, was never a serious personage, one taken seriously by most of his voters. Just a symbol which irritated the ones that were their enemies. What will they do for a leader who actually seems competent and able to deliver, should one emerge?

    And, I dare say, the US's population probably need a real populist because nothing else seems capable of halting its degradation.
     
  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    Trump went 'ballistic' after being tossed off Twitter

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/08/trump-reacts-to-twitter-ban-456785
     
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  15. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    There are, I think, two key points that makes this far more possible (even if the constitution is interpreted to mean that the land go back to MD if the Federal government surrenders it - Virginia had to legislate to accept the return of Alexandria, so it was not autmomatic!):

    1. Maryland is, except the governor, an extremely solid blue state. Democrats have had a majority in the Maryland house for 100 years, and 120 in the Maryland Senate. Right now, they have supermajorities in both (so the republican governor is irrelevant. Even then, this would likely not be enough if they were being asked to surrender something that's currently part of Maryland to create a new state (because states are vey unlikey to willingly neuter themselves like this, but;

    2. Washington has not been part of Maryland for 230 years at this point. The political optics of not taking back land that Maryland has had no control over in living memory are wholly different from those of ceding land that's currently part of Maryland. More importantly, this move has zero impact on Maryland's state budget and political weight in the federation. Maryland loses nothing compared to its current situation, as opposed to any other state creation scenario, which requires a state to surrender part of its political power, territory and tax base.

    As for the territories, there is a possibility, but, the problem there is - most territories lean blue or are wildcards, with relatively slim picking to create something solidly Red.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  16. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    DC statehood is all about 2 more democrat senators; all the rest is blather.
     
  17. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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  18. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    Who benefits from denial and minimalism of the time share presentation of January 6th benefit?
     
  19. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    There are much fairer arguments to make one or two new states somewhere in the Pacific.
    As for Puerto Rico I'd strongly advise them to take independence!
     
  20. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    Well stated and spot on Lex. I think this is simple case of TF not wanting to eat his words and trying to use endless digital ink to paper it over in denial.
     
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