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US Capitol Breached

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Jan 6, 2021.

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  1. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    And full representation for the citizens of the city.
     
  2. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    And the Roman guards just let them in.
    romangaul.png
     
  3. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Weird woman. She speaks like being married to a communist is something bad. :dunno:
     
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  4. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    And yet you are claiming the US needs a period of fascist dictatorship to move forward from neoliberalism? Or how else should one read the final two sentences of your post?
     
  5. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The claim that the events of 6th January represent an attempted coup are not empirically evident: no manifestos were read, no provisional governments declared. Nobody involved stated without ambiguity: the old constitution has been dissolved, and we are in charge now.

    This claim therefore requires some sort of justification, but those which have been offered are either based on dubious technicalities, that interference in the electoral process for an executive office constitutes a coup, despite that not being a conventional usage of that word and certainly not what it is expected to connote, or they are speculative, that if certain other, ill-defined conditions had been met, Trump would surely have issued his pronunciamento and the putsch would from there have proceeded among more conventional lines.

    Scepticism of these explanations would be the default position of any disinterested observer, and so does not require any special motivation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  6. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I'm sorry, but I find this rule ridiculous. By this logic one can avoid doing a coup simply by falsely claiming that one is upholding the constitutional order while in fact destroying it. This is a silly idea in general, but particularly so in the contemporary American context.

    Since the Repubican Party is exactly in the position of claiming they are safeguarding American democracy and the Constitution while in fact seeking to destroy both, what you are saying effectively means that the Republican Party can never be involved in a coup no matter what actions they take, because, again, they will never openly claim they are replacing the Constitutional order with something else, they will always be claiming to restore the true Constitutional order from the liberals who have usurped/destroyed it.
     
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  7. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Well, to try to put it from another angle: Should it be generally acceptable to mobilize street fighters to try to overturn election results in the US? That was the intention behind directing the "parliament of the street" against the Capitol.

    The intention to overturn the election result was clear, even if the MO selected was totally unrealistic and confused.
     
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  8. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Why would they? The whole point was to nullify he recent presidential election on the POTUS behalf and reinstall him for a second term he never won.

    The point is to remain in power. Screw constitutions and all the high fallutin' stuff about principles. This was a direct powerplay. Power is what is at stake for Trump, and all that follows from it.

    It's what to expect from an attempted "self-coup" like this.
     
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  9. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    After being subjected to 10 hours of Bridgerton I can sympathise with her.
     
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  10. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Breaking into the capitol with the stated intention of strangling and hanging the VP and Congress is a violent coup.
     
  11. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    It's silly in almost all scenarios, current and historical, since it is a consistent tactic to claim to uphold something on "a deeper" level, one of "true" democracy/freedom/rule of law/whatever when out to terminally gut it.
     
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  12. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    That is an outsider's perspective and one who doesn't like the US. The smart move is two more senators.
     
  13. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I also want to point out that the Senate is an explicit instrument of minority rule, and pearl clutching about it is a bit odd for someone who claims to believe in democracy. Like, in all seriousness, the US Senate is probably on balance a greater anti-democratic force than the EU, which you claim to hate.
     
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  14. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    What you're describing does not constitute a coup. That is what I'm saying: a coup represent an attempted to overthrow one government and replace it with another, and that interference in the electoral process, however blatant, does not constitute the overthrow of a government. That is hysteria, and it is not to the advantage of the vast majority of the American population to buy into that hysteria.
     
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  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    I'll give you that, the way I see it there may not be much to lose in subverting the senate. But the people currently available to do it deserve no support.
    On the other hand I'm happy that the UK left the EU even if it has to content with its current national government - it was an improvement allowing people there to change policies in the future. So I shouldn't argue either way on this.

    Actually, I'm thinking it over, your position is more like Varoufarkis on the EU, trying to tweak what is wrong in itself. And will likely have the same results.Insiders set the rules and will never allow your desired tweaks to have the effect you wish, if they allow them at all. Some thing need outright dismantling. But that must be done with a plan about how and to what end situation.

    The fact that there are different words for populism and fascism ought to be a hint they're not the same thing. At all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  16. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    I'm 100% sure that a Civil War would be a bad thing. I've no interest in killing or being killed by my neighbors, regardless of how odious I regard aspects of their ideology.
     
  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    Thank you for calling out the shameless goalpost switch.
     
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  18. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    My actual position is that the US Senate should be abolished and replaced with a properly democratic body. But in the meantime I'm not opposed to "subverting" it by adding new states to correct the balance and allow the political balance of the Senators to better reflect the political balance of the country.

    Sure, but in fact, what Trump has not delivered, and what his base wants, is "fascism", not "populism." Indeed, to my mind, "populism" refers to style more than substance, and thus is not even something that can really be "delivered."
     
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  19. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    But introducing the Spanish word autogolpe provides opportunities for politicians, like AOC.
    She could teach US citizens and me to pronounce it correctly, help educate the US public by discussing
    the difference between a coup and a self-coup, perhaps draw more Latino voters to the Dems.

    I'm sure some enterprising USian would at least consider opening a taco bar called Autogolpe.
    And, as lovers of irony, we would then all await an attempted takeover by Taco Bell.
     
  20. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

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    Stop the Steel!
     
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