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US Capitol Breached

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cheetah, Jan 6, 2021.

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  1. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    If we're going to pretend this is about what benefits the American population, can you explain what portion of the American population would benefit from regarding this as a "circus", to use your term?
     
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  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    While the Senate has always been a mostly rich, white male, dominated body, it hasn't been been an instrument of minority rule for most of its existence. How one defines minority rules is important. I think that it is more of an anchor against rapid change that might be provoked by the House or President. In the same way, SCOTUS is even more of a lagging indicator and heavier anchor against change. Length of terms is part of their being anchors to the past and resistant to change. They both slow down efforts for rapid change. So the question really is about how quickly one wants change to occur. Those feeling oppressed want it NOW! those not so affected are Meh. The world is certainly changing more quickly now than in the past and government is falling behind. Speeding up the government process of implementing change is probably a good thing, but that too shouldn't be too rushed.
     
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  3. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    It's a doomed strategy I think.

    The problem is the political balance isn't represented in any way. The two big parties are the problem. Probably the size itself of the country is the problem, for it to be democratic. And populism should not be confused with what Trump did. You should not underestimate Trump even now that he's about to leave the main stage, but always remember that he was happily carried by the same media that pretends to condemn him. His main institutional job has been to fill a void that otherwise might have been occupied by a populist more dangerous to the ruling elites. Trump just pissed off some of them in terms of style, didn't harm their interests. Where he tried (all the people profiting from the usual foreign policy) he failed.
     
  4. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    The intention to overturn a legitimate election result in this manner, by mobilizing an impromptu mob like this, in order to perpetuate an incumbent government, IS an attempted coup. It just so happens it is a coup-attempt on behalf of an incumbent who seeks to avoid renouncing power.

    Has happened quite a lot, hence there is a word for the concept:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup

    But then it so happens that on top of all that, Trump is a dumbass, which is a blessing in disguise in relation to this.
     
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  5. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    It has nothing to do with rich, white, male or whatever. The Senate majority represents millions fewer voters than the Senate minority. The Senate was always intended to provide the "minority of the opulent" with a powerful check on government action, and I would argue that it has, in fact, acted that way for most of its existence. Don't forget that Senators were not even elected by popular vote, but selected by state legislatures, until the 20th century.
     
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  6. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    In the very first lesson at "Commie school" it was emphasised that many objectives would not be attained in our life-times.
    (Or in counter-revolutionaries' life-times, but that was in a later lesson.)
     
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  7. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    You're trying to make a distinction without a difference here by changing the name of one. You might just get by on it if you limit coups to being (para-)military coups only, by it's still a subversion of democracy and an overthrow of legitimate government.

    You can do better than this.
     
  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    To your bolded: yes it does. That is a subversion of the (slash any) democratic principle. It doesn't matter that they weren't successful. It doesn't matter that some were along for the ride. By rewording "preventing the confirmation of a legitimate election" into "interference in the electoral process", you're making what happened sound lesser than it actually was.

    Your argument hinges on the technicality that nobody succeeded, because that's the grey area in which you can argue that there was no seizing of power. But the same argument is defeated by the stated aim of various people present that called for, as an example, the VP's head. That was their aim. It doesn't matter that they did not succeed.
     
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  9. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    As I said, how one defines "minority rule" is important. We could spend hours arguing about what it means and never get around to discussing the real issue which is how to bring about improvements for more people. As i see it, the goal should be improved justice for more people along with reduction of poverty and the bad elements of living and the more of the good stuff for more people. That is why I would avoid that needless can of political worms and deal with the issue of change and how improve its progress. The history of the Senate is mostly irrelevant; what is important is how to make it a better instrument of change.
     
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  10. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    The history of the Senate is absolutely relevant to understanding how to improve it. And being a pesky small-d democrat I'm opposed to minority rule on principle.
     
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  11. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    All coups, attempted, successful or failed, trade heavily in threats and intimidation. Success frankly relies more or successful intimidation rather than application of outright violence. Intimidation certainly is way more cost-effective and practical than any more hands-on approaches.

    And Trump clearly set out to intimidate congress by directing as mob against them. With the purpose of intimidating representatives to overturn the presidential election result, and hand him a second term that way.

    So, if Trump supposedly didn't attempt a coup here, the question would still remain what level of outright intimidation is supposed to be acceptable is US democratic mechanisms? This was an OK level, no biggie?
     
  12. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Am I the only one noticing the irony in arguing about an insurrection with someone who named themselves "Traitorfish"?
     
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  13. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    The thing with the Trump election is that it's so 2015!Argentina to me.

    Spoiler :
    Back then a series of self-inflicted mistakes against a not that charismatic candidate managed to get the government candidate to just lose in a runoff.
    The local equivalent of Fox News proclaimed the government candidates as having won, against all evidence, in a pre-planned attempt at what can only be described as electoral fraud. In fact there was fraud and a lot of it, which left them with a stranglehold over congress, but popular disgust with the government was enough that the opposition won the presidency and some governorships anyway.
    Just like Trump this year, back then the sitting (and losing) president (who had said she wanted to stay in office forever and everyone else was a traitor and called herself the mother of the people) of Argentina decided not to hand over power. In fact the pro tempore leader of the Senate had to be declared acting president of the Republic, through a hasty court ruling, in order to swear in the new elected officials and so have a legal succession.

    The next four years were of undisguised opposition to the government being in government by itself, regardless of its policies. And included attempts to storm Congress by pro-totalitarian mobs with their own homemade firearms and throwing no less than 14 metric tons of bricks at the police and government buildings. The government barely managed to reach the end of its term in office. And then in 2019 they lost the election, narrowly. And only because of a mechanism that emulates the US Electoral College and makes the first minority get the presidency. And that was helped along by an economic downturn caused by a sharp drop in commodity prices and decisions by the US Federal Reserve that affected Argentina's capacity to pay off its foreign debt.

    And also, crucially, it was because after giving the former incumbents a resounding slap in the 2017 mid-term elections the electorate decided to forgive and forget the downright evils (co-operation with international terrorism, intentionally tanking the economy, the spoils system, political assassinations, upwards redistribution of wealth, etc.) of those whom they decided to reinstate in 2019.

    As a result we have had a downwards leap in quality into borderline totalitarianism, a renewal of political assassinations and a collapsed health system and a collapsed economy under a party so Orwellian that it calls itself the Victory Front and the Everyone Front.


    Don't forgive the Republicans in 2022. Don't forgive them in any by-elections in-between. Don't let them get away with more phony judiciary appointments. Don't give them rope in 2024 or 2026 or 2028. They'll hang you with it.
     
  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Super Moderator Supporter

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    The quickest and easiest way to improve the senate is to add two more democrat states: PR and DC. Anything that includes adding amendments to the constitution is not going to happen soon, if at all.
     
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  15. Evie

    Evie Pronounced like Eevee

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    PR is more of a wildcard than reliably blue though.
     
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  16. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    I cited 3 of your posts with specific #s from different pages and I dont have the luxury of hiding behind anyone, they dont protect me, they protect your echo chamber from me. Nobody reports you out of spite much less get you banned, so to accuse me of trying to hide is rich coming from a human lie detector yelling insults from a safe space.

    The page I linked was the start of that debate and it went for several pages. Here it is:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/george-floyd-and-protesting-while-black.658605/page-150

    I said you downplayed last year's riots and there's the proof:

    You quoted Malcolm X, not MLK. But when others did quote MLK and I disagreed with his argument you criticized me twice. How dare I question MLK's logic! So was it wrong for me to assume you agreed with MLK? You do agree with him, right?

    "A reasonable tolerance for the collateral damage". That was you defending looters, arsonists and people attacking cops and others who were in the way. Do you understand the people most hurt by the riots are black? Burn it all down! There goes the neighborhood Target and with it 30-40 jobs.

    Thats just the tip of the iceberg, many business wont or cant rebuild. I'm sure you have a car, but plenty of people living in cities dont. Hopefully the Walmart a couple miles away is still available. I saw old folk crying their eyes out because they couldn't get their medicine. Dont defend that crap as collateral damage.

    Now where did I mention MAGA? I said the people who attacked the capitol were vandals and should be prosecuted? The position I've taken is consistent, vandalizing other people's property should be prosecuted, not giving one group of criminals a reasonable tolerance for collateral damage based on their skin color or ideology.
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    I'm in agreement on that.
     
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  18. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

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    up yours.
    wtf theirs was a direct attack against congress
     
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  19. sendos

    sendos Immortal

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    Don't hold your hopes up. The Republicans weren't punished for blocking the increase of the debt ceiling during Obama's years. If anything they got more support.

    In 2022, the people would only focus on how Biden and the Democrats have gone and nothing else. America's day of infamy will just be ancient history to American voters by then.
     
  20. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Trump's Telegram account already has 320k subscribers. Few hours ago it was 270k.
    Is this messenger popular in the US?
    IIRC Belarus protesters used it to coordinate their actions, because it has end-to-end encryption and allegedly cannot be eavesdropped by the government.
     
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