US Congresswoman shot in Arizona

[Bestbank Tiger]

Just like how Beavis & Butt-Head were responsible for kids burning down their homes?

I fully expect people in the coming days to start blaming the right-wing talking heads. Didn't they try blaming O'Reilly for a murder not long ago?

People are idiots.

We already had someone make a false claim that the perp was an Afghan war vet and a Tea Party member. We know for a fact that he never served in the military and there is no evidence yet that he was a member of any Tea Party organization (although that could still change as the facts come out).

We do know he has a history of bizarre and in some cases criminal behavior, and his online presence shows no coherent philosophy and a lot of delusional, random gibberish.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Blaming people who disagree with you for this act can't possibly be taken by a crazy person as its own call to violence? Um...ok.

Did I use any type of violent analogy in my discussion of them? No. The two are completely non analogous.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

And both sides are guilty of violent rhetoric. Here's a link to some examples from the left (warning: foul language): http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnHawkins/2010/03/30/violent_liberal_hate_rhetoric_fifteen_quotes/page/full/

That could incite a crazy person. Obama used "they bring a knife, you bring a gun" and told his supporters to "get in people's faces" during the primary. The DNC had its own target map with bullseyes and a "behind ENEMY lines" caption (emphasis on enemy mine). The left claimed that opponents of the individual mandate want Americans to die. We heard for eight years that Bush was Hitler, orchestrated 9/11. was a war criminal, blew up the levees in New Orleans, There were violent directed at Lieberman during the health care debate for opposing the Medicare buy-in and the public option. There was the NH state senator who regretted that Palin wasn't on the Ted Stevens plane.

Also plenty of bigoted but nonviolent rhetoric. The doctored video of Dan Webster, the lies about Palin banning books or charging for rape kits, the made up no sex one night stand with Christine O'Donnell, calling Meg Whitman a prostitute, etc.

All reprehensible, but you can't paint the entire left with it or blame them for people who commit criminal acts.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

The guy sounds like a schizophrenic, but that doesn't mean that Sarah Palin is not guilty of incitement.

 

[metatron]

Reading this thread and seeing that while a representative of our government is struggling to live, we bicker here about definitions of words and whether she was really liberal.

It seems utterly shallow.

I beg to differ.
As a politician her being shot is very different from you or me being shot. VRWCAgent has indicated that several times thoughout the thread i believe he is right in doing so.
Both the person Gabrielle Giffords and the congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords have been shot.
The thread primarily deals with the latter. I don't see how that is "shallow".
On the contrary i would consider putting all the emphasis on the former "shallow", vastly inappropriate, allmost vain.
I don't know her personally, i'm neither part of her friends nor her family. So the former is, frankly, none of my business. Pretending it was would allmost amount to a disrespectful intrusion.
Did you know her personally? Is she your friend on facebook or something?

I assume she isn't. There are other people dying in the news all over the world today, like everyday. The most important reason that Giffords life matters more to you than other lives, is her function as a representative, her responsibilities, her commitment i.e. her life as a political person.

@Cheetah
Well, certainly comments of "She was a hottie" have no place.

I agree. But that was one comment. And it wasn't mine. No reason to call me and a lot of other people shallow.

And then that whole "This guy is a liberal b/c he read the Commie Manifesto" vs. "No! He is a righty fascist b/c he read Mein Kampf" lead to a "Let's argue about who we can pin blame on when to be honest no one has any idea b/c the perp is currently in FBI custody and they are not leaking anything.

I didn't exactly do that either. None the less you feel it is necessary to attack me for objecting to the use of certain terms as (what i feel is) a euphomism. I fail to see how that is disrespectful to her life and deserves attack.

Plus: Whoever has a hunch (based on the youtube video or whatever) that this was completely apolitical has as little justification to impose that view on others in this thread without further (read: any) evidence as those making the wild claims you criticise have.

That lack of evidence does not preclude anybody from speculating on calls for violence as a political mean being (probably) a bad idea, in general, independent from Angle's comments and this crime being directly connected or not, and independent from the political alignment of the shooter.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Not trying to say the whole right is to blame. Just the individuals who create such things, or those that endorse them. Everyone using violent imagery needs to take a step back after this and think about what they're doing.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

I beg to differ.
As a politician her being shot is very different from you or me being shot. VRWCAgent has indicated that several times thoughout the thread i believe he is right in doing so.
Both the person Gabrielle Giffords and the congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords have been shot.

Agree. I don't think the person Gabrielle Giffords is worth more than any other person, but an attack on an elected official is an attack on our right to choose those who govern us.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Not trying to say the whole right is to blame. Just the individuals who create such things, or those that endorse them. Everyone using violent imagery needs to take a step back after this and think about what they're doing.

Fair enough. Hopefully people will choose their words more carefully.

Even if it doesn't cause incidents like this, it puts into perspective that violent rhetoric is in extremely poor taste.

 

[JerichoHill]

@metatron
Where did I specifically name you?

k thanx bye

 

[Formaldehyde]

I fully expect people in the coming days to start blaming the right-wing talking heads. Didn't they try blaming O'Reilly for a murder not long ago?

People are idiots.

AFAIK nobody in this forum "blamed" O'Reilly for a "murder". I personally blamed him for repeatedly using absurd hate-filled bigoted rhetoric which may very well have incited the wacko to commit the murder. Do you see the difference and how you just created an absurd strawman of my views?

OKC was an attack on a federal building which was a political target.

The Olympic Park bombing was a political attack but not a rational one, as it had nothing to do with the terrorist's stated cause.

Then you are retracting your previous comment?

We already had someone make a false claim that the perp was an Afghan war vet and a Tea Party member.

I don't remember anybody making those assertions in this forum. Could you repost that message?

And both sides are guilty of violent rhetoric. Here's a link to some examples from the left (warning: foul language):

From this article:

Meanwhile, if conservatives truthfully refer to Barack Obama as a socialist or encourage people to fight back against the takeover of 1/6 of our economy, we're hysterically accused of inciting violence, while liberals who actually call for violence and publicly wish death upon conservatives are given a free pass.

Truthfully?

Do you really believe this unmitigated nonsense from the far-right? That Obama is a "socialist" in any manner, shape, or form?

If not, what makes you think any of the rest of his comments are "truthful", instead of an obvious attempt to deflect worthy criticism by trying to claim that Democrats do it as well?

Obama used "they bring a knife, you bring a gun" and told his supporters to "get in people's faces" during the primary.

Are you familiar with the notion of deliberately taking a comment out of context?

Barack Obama’s call for ‘new politics’ is officially over. In just 24 hours, Barack Obama attacked one of America’s pioneering women CEOs, rejected a series of joint bipartisan town halls, and said that if there’s a political knife fight, he’d bring a gun," McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said, referring also to the Obama campaign's shot at Carly Fiorina's lavish pay package and role in layoffs at Hewlett-Packard.

The left claimed that opponents of the individual mandate want Americans to die.

Many who are opposed to comprehensive healthcare for all Americans certainly don't seem to care too much if they do...

We heard for eight years that Bush was Hitler, orchestrated 9/11. was a war criminal, blew up the levees in New Orleans.

Outside of what I and others consider to an obvious war criminal for sanctioning the torture and murder of innocent civilians, contrary to US and international law, care to point out where any Democrat politician or reputable news organization did any of the above? Do you see the difference that Fox News talking heads and Republican polticians are the ones making these absurd comments in many cases?

don't think the person Gabrielle Giffords is worth more than any other person, but an attack on an elected official is an attack on our right to choose those who govern us.

At least we agree on that.

 

[Cheetah]

@metatron
Where did I specifically name you?

k thanx bye

The way you worded your first post could be understood to be targeting more or less everyone who had posted in this thread. I certainly understood it that way, and it seems metatron did as well.

I feel your collective criticism of the discussions we've had in this thread focuses solely on the less mature parts, and simple ignores the more meaningful discussions we've had. If that wasn't the intention, then a more nuanced post would certainly have been preferred.

And as for your suggestions, I don't think me remembering the victims - or more correctly, writing about the victims, as they are a central part of this event that I have never forgotten - will help them any. Nor do I think praying for the victims will help them any.

And I refuse to simply show up in this thread to cry and mourn for the victims, something I would find quite pointless: I don't know the victims, and me being sad about them does not help them nor me. The only productive thing I can do, is to try and hold a mature discussion as to what exactly happened, why it happened, and what the consequences will be. While this may not help the victims, nor help the police in solving the case, that's the thing we usually do at CFC-OT. That's not shallow of us, and I doubt that you intended to suggest so. But a more nuanced post from you would certainly have been appreciated.

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Do you see the difference and how you just created an absurd strawman of my views?

Oh, the irony.

I don't remember anybody making those assertions in this forum. Could you repost that message?

I didn't realize this was the only place in the world where the incident is being discussed.

Do you really believe this unmitigated nonsense from the far-right? That Obama is a "socialist" in any manner, shape, or form?

Attack the source instead of addressing the substance.

Are you familiar with the notion of deliberately taking a comment out of context?

Ah, I see...so it's 'taking out of context' when the left does it. When the right does it it's inciting violence.

Many who are opposed to comprehensive healthcare for all Americans certainly don't seem to care too much if they do...

Seeing as how Obama and Congress never even attempted healthcare for all Americans, I guess you're talking about the Democrats there.

Outside of being an obvious war criminal for sanctioning the torture and murder of innocent civilians contrary to US and international law, care to point out where any Democrat politician or reputable news organization did any of the above?

Cynthia McKinney is a former Democratic member of Congress and alleged both levee conspiracies and the murder of 5000 inmates. This is Daily Kos so you can't deflect by saying it's a right wing source.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/3/0057/38473/886/618469

The video has been taken down by Youtube, but it obviously supported the story or it wouldn't be there.

Phil Berg is a liberal activist (now a birfer) who filed suits against Bush for orchestrating 9/11.

I don't have a link (tried to find one), but I personally heard Mike Malloy spouting 9/11 accusations a few years ago. Even Jon Stewart called out Democratic members of Congress for comparing the GOP to hostage takers and terrorists during the tax debate...you might be able to find that in his archives.

 

[Newbunkle]

Shot US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords "doing well"

 

[JollyRoger]

People are idiots.

And idiots are easily influenced by irresponsible political vitriol. That's why a responsible politician tones it down or risks being tied to the acts of idiots.

 

[h0ncho]

I find it absolutely disgusting that before even a day has passed, people try to use this event for political gain. There simply is no excuse. Shame on you all.

Not only that, but looking at his book list, one thing strikes me: Most of these books are typical "prescribed readings" in school - this seems to suggest to me that first and foremost, this guy was extremely impressionable. This fits in with the rest of his videos as well; they are a mishmash of a lot of different views, whose only common trait is that they are completely out of touch with reality. What happened here, I think, is obvious: Easily impressionable, mentally unstable man starts to believe all the crazy things he hears on the internet, from all kinds of people, and merges it all into a worldview which is not left or right, just incurably insane.

 

[JollyRoger]

As for those of you claiming mental illlness, do you agree the death penalty should be off the table in this case? Is it possible that he is not competent enough to even stand trial?

To those of you who complained about the Christmans bomber being read Miranda rights, will you complain if this guy was read his rights?

Are any of you disappointed that Daniel Hernandez, the aide that probably saved the congresswoman's life, was apparently not asked to show his papers in compliance with Arizona law?

 

[Zack]

i think we can all agree that it's not very nice to shoot politicians even if you really. really. really. really. really disagree with them. Unless they're doing a genocide or something

Even if they're genocidal, it's still not nice to shoot someone.

 

[Berzerker]

the victims of their genocide might disagree

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Cynthia McKinney is a former Democratic member of Congress and alleged both levee conspiracies and the murder of 5000 inmates. This is Daily Kos so you can't deflect by saying it's a right wing source.

Everyone, or at least everyone I know thought she was nuts and we were all glad when she was gone. I have no idea how such an idiot ever got elected to any office especially on the national level.

Phil Berg is a liberal activist (now a birfer) who filed suits against Bush for orchestrating 9/11.

Also nuts. Obviously.

In my opinion, the biggest difference between the left and right in America is the left marginalizes their nutjobs, while the right embraces theirs. See: Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, etc

 

[.Shane.]

Well I am not a doctor, but I do know that you can keep a person "alive" (in the sense that their heart is breathing and their lungs are breathing) while the brain is essentially non-functional. As a congresswoman the doctors may be not declaring her dead yet, when if it were someone else they may. So she may be somewhere in that area, and the info may not be filtering out to the press properly as to her condition, so they just report her as "alive." That would be my guess.

However, that doesn't really say what the chances are of her returning to close to or at normal.

Yeah, that is more what I was trying to ask.... Assuming she survives, how functional will/can she be?