US Congresswoman shot in Arizona

Oh, the irony.
Show me where I made a strawman of your opinion.


I didn't realize this was the only place in the world where the incident is being discussed.
In other words, you are whining about the ridiculous comments of people in other forums? It isn't very difficult to find totally inane comments about any topic. Just read the comments of a typical youtube video.

Attack the source instead of addressing the substance.
I did "attack the substance". Obama is no more a "socialist" than you are.

That is a terrible article! Most of the examples are really bad.

"I have zero doubt that if Dick Cheney was not in power, people wouldn't be dying needlessly tomorrow....I'm just saying if he did die, other people, more people would live. That's a fact." -- Bill Maher
Bill Maher? A comedian? :lol:

Ah, I see...so it's 'taking out of context' when the left does it. When the right does it it's inciting violence.
Do you deny that many of the Tea Partyers are violent individuals who have made threats against numerous politicians? That the hatred, bigotry and fearmongering in this country hasn't gotten completely out of hand, largely inspired by nuts such as Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck? Or is it your contention that all the threads in this forum about their frequent lies, deliberate distortions, and hate-filled bigoted rhetoric are based on remarks taken out of context?

Seeing as how Obama and Congress never even attempted healthcare for all Americans, I guess you're talking about the Democrats there..
You mean the final compromise legislation due to the Republican opposition? :lol:

Cynthia McKinney is a former Democratic member of Congress and alleged both levee conspiracies and the murder of 5000 inmates. This is Daily Kos so you can't deflect by saying it's a right wing source.
So there's a few Democrats in Congress who make irresponsible remarks? How many Republicans are there who have made completely absurd statements, such as that Obama is a "socialist"? Or that the Democrats are proposing "death squads" as part of their healthcare plan?

Phil Berg is a liberal activist (now a birfer) who filed suits against Bush for orchestrating 9/11.
I was specifically referring to Congressmen and the media, not some nut who styles himself to be a "liberal".

Even Jon Stewart called out Democratic members of Congress for comparing the GOP to hostage takers and terrorists during the tax debate...
So what does that have to do with anything you mentioned previously?

Granted, there are those on the "left" who have made some stupid remarks in the past. And they are just as much to blame for the current climate of fear, bigotry, and hatred as some Republicans are. But that is hardly a rationalization for organizations such as Fox News to do so on a regular basis. I also think this is a far greater problem with the far-right than it is of the "left" because it is far more widespread. It even seems to be an inherent element of the Tea Party.

And I think the people who claim that we will have more acts such as this in the future if we don't make concerted efforts to stop it are correct in their assessment. Far too many people believe everything they see and hear on TV with which they happen to agree.
 
Yeah, that is more what I was trying to ask.... Assuming she survives, how functional will/can she be?

I seriously doubt she'll be of much use for the rest of her term, and I kind of doubt that she'd run for reelection for the next term (which is a shame b/c it sounds like she was well-liked in her area). However, as a relative centrist she could probably be a contender for a senate seat. I kind of hope she does b/c i really don't like the idea of violent coercion in electoral system; if she is able, she should come back out of spite.
 
Granted, there are those on the "left" who have made some stupid remarks in the past. And they are just as much to blame for the current climate of fear, bigotry, and hatred as some Republicans are. But that is hardly a rationalization for organizations such as Fox News to do so on a regular basis. I also think this is a far greater problem with the far-right than it is of the "left" because it is far more widespread. It even seems to be an inherent element of the Tea Party.

Why am I not surprised you're one of the first to jump on the "congresswoman shot, therefore Fox News is evil" bandwagon? I bet you blame Glenn Beck for rousing this guy to violence, right?

No, it's not enough that the shooter is crazy. There has to be a way to tie it to your preconceived opinions of Fox News.

You like to talk about strawmen, then you pull Fox News into the discussion. Wtf. It has nothing to do with it. Beavis and Butt-Head were not responsible for kids burning their houses down (you do remember that controversy right?), and Fox News is not responsible for crazy people acting crazy.
 
Oh, the irony.

Cynthia McKinney is a former Democratic member of Congress and alleged both levee conspiracies and the murder of 5000 inmates. This is Daily Kos so you can't deflect by saying it's a right wing source.

The video has been taken down by Youtube, but it obviously supported the story or it wouldn't be there.

LMAO Did you even bother to CHECK your OWN LINK ???
Dailykos post is linked to .... Fox news :lol:


Cynthia McKinney - DoD Killed 5000 Prisoners and Used Katrina to Hide the Bodies
ShareNew 0
by Reaper0Bot0
Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 09:00:57 PM PST

Crossposted at the Motley Moose

Please forgive the source:
[U]http://elections.foxnews.com/[/U]2008/10/02/mckinney-accuses-government-slaughtering-prisoners-dumping-bodies-katrina/

...

Okay, first off, what the [censored]? Seriously, we've got death camps and mass graves now? And we've got the National Guard doing it? I mean, for reals? And the whistleblower goes to Cynthia McKinney of all people? She punched a cop and is running as the Green Party nominee. Instant credibility! And she can totally protect people from the Murder Police!
 
Ugh. Seriously why's every thread have to turn into partisan hackery? Why cant we all agreee that It wasnt very nice to do?
 
Why am I not surprised you're one of the first to jump on the "congresswoman shot, therefore Fox News is evil" bandwagon? I bet you blame Glenn Beck for rousing this guy to violence, right?
I bet you can't even be bothered to read my previous reply to you on the last page before generating yet another completely absurd strawman of my actual opinions. :lol:

AFAIK nobody in this forum "blamed" O'Reilly for a "murder". I personally blamed him for repeatedly using absurd hate-filled bigoted rhetoric which may very well have incited the wacko to commit the murder. Do you see the difference and how you just created an absurd strawman of my views?
And yes, I think it is quite conceivable that this idiot was also influenced by the hatemongers and bigots on Fox News and elsewhere. And I'm certainly not the only person to think so. I suggest you read this thread for further details.

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik:

"When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government. The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And, unfortunately, Arizona I think has become sort of the capital. We have become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry."

The NYT had a great article on the escalating political rhetoric of the times, and how it might impact yesterday's events. I encourage you all to read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09bai.html?_r=1

WASHINGTON — Within minutes of the first reports Saturday that Representative Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, and a score of people with her had been shot in Tucson, pages began disappearing from the Web. One was Sarah Palin’s infamous “cross hairs” map from last year, which showed a series of contested Congressional districts, including Ms. Giffords’s, with gun targets trained on them. Another was from Daily Kos, the liberal blog, where one of the congresswoman’s apparently liberal constituents declared her “dead to me” after Ms. Giffords voted against Nancy Pelosi in House leadership elections last week.

Odds are pretty good that neither of these — nor any other isolated bit of imagery — had much to do with the shooting in Tucson. But scrubbing them from the Internet couldn’t erase all evidence of the rhetorical recklessness that permeates our political moment. The question is whether Saturday’s shooting marks the logical end point of such a moment — or rather the beginning of a terrifying new one.

Modern America has endured such moments before. The intense ideological clashes of the 1960s, which centered on Communism and civil rights and Vietnam, were marked by a series of assassinations that changed the course of American history, carried out against a televised backdrop of urban riots and self-immolating war protesters. During the culture wars of the 1990s, fought over issues like gun rights and abortion, right-wing extremists killed 168 people in Oklahoma City and terrorized hundreds of others in Atlanta’s Centennial Olympic Park and at abortion clinics in the South.

What’s different about this moment is the emergence of a political culture — on blogs and Twitter and cable television — that so loudly and readily reinforces the dark visions of political extremists, often for profit or political gain. It wasn’t clear Saturday whether the alleged shooter in Tucson was motivated by any real political philosophy or by voices in his head, or perhaps by both. But it’s hard not to think he was at least partly influenced by a debate that often seems to conflate philosophical disagreement with some kind of political Armageddon.

The problem here doesn’t lie with the activists like most of those who populate the Tea Parties, ordinary citizens who are doing what citizens are supposed to do — engaging in a conversation about the direction of the country. Rather, the problem would seem to rest with the political leaders who pander to the margins of the margins, employing whatever words seem likely to win them contributions or TV time, with little regard for the consequences.

Consider the comments of Sharron Angle, the Tea Party favorite who unsuccessfully ran against Harry Reid for the Senate in Nevada last year. She talked about “domestic enemies” in the Congress and said, “I hope we’re not getting to Second Amendment remedies.” Then there’s Rick Barber, a Republican who lost his primary in a Congressional race in Alabama, but not before airing an ad in which someone dressed as George Washington listened to an attack on the Obama agenda and gravely proclaimed, “Gather your armies.”

In fact, much of the message among Republicans last year, as they sought to exploit the Tea Party phenomenon, centered — like the Tea Party moniker itself — on this imagery of armed revolution. Popular spokespeople like Ms. Palin routinely drop words like “tyranny” and “socialism” when describing the president and his allies, as if blind to the idea that Americans legitimately faced with either enemy would almost certainly take up arms.

It’s not that such leaders are necessarily trying to incite violence or hysteria; in fact, they’re not. It’s more that they are so caught up in a culture of hyperbole, so amused with their own verbal flourishes and the ensuing applause, that — like the bloggers and TV hosts to which they cater — they seem to lose their hold on the power of words.

On Saturday, for instance, Michael Steele, the Republican Party chairman, was among the first to issue a statement saying he was “shocked and horrified” by the Arizona shooting, and no doubt he was. But it was Mr. Steele who, last March, said he hoped to send Speaker Nancy Pelosi to the “firing line.”

Mr. Steele didn’t mean this the way it sounded, of course; he was talking about “firing” in the pink slip sense of the word. But his carelessly constructed, made-for-television rhetoric reinforced the dominant imagery of the moment — a portrayal of 21st-century Washington as being like 18th-century Lexington and Concord, an occupied country on the verge of armed rebellion.

Contrast that with one of John McCain’s finer moments as a presidential candidate in 2008, when a woman at a Minnesota town hall meeting asserted that Mr. Obama was a closeted Arab. “No, ma’am, he’s not,” Mr. McCain quickly replied, taking back the microphone. “He’s a decent family man, citizen, that I just happen to have disagreements with.” Mr. McCain was harking back to a different moment in American politics, in which such disagreements could be intense without becoming existential clashes in which the freedom of the country was at stake.

None of this began last year, or even with Mr. Obama or with the Tea Party; there were constant intimations during George W. Bush’s presidency that he was a modern Hitler or the devious designer of an attack on the World Trade Center, a man whose very existence threatened the most cherished American ideals.

The more pressing question, though, is where this all ends — whether we will begin to re-evaluate the piercing pitch of our political debate in the wake of Saturday’s shooting, or whether we are hurtling unstoppably into a frightening period more like the late 1960s.

The country labors still to recover from the memories of Dealey Plaza and the Ambassador Hotel, of Memphis and Birmingham and Watts. Tucson will either be the tragedy that brought us back from the brink, or the first in a series of gruesome memories to come.
 
The guy sounds like a schizophrenic, but that doesn't mean that Sarah Palin is not guilty of incitement.

And a lot of other people who have made comments in speeches that suggest we take up arms against our representatives over things like health care reform could potentially be charged as well. Not that any would be convicted but simply prosecuting them may be enough to get the rhetoric toned down.
 
I find it absolutely disgusting that before even a day has passed, people try to use this event for political gain. There simply is no excuse. Shame on you all.

Not only that, but looking at his book list, one thing strikes me: Most of these books are typical "prescribed readings" in school - this seems to suggest to me that first and foremost, this guy was extremely impressionable. This fits in with the rest of his videos as well; they are a mishmash of a lot of different views, whose only common trait is that they are completely out of touch with reality. What happened here, I think, is obvious: Easily impressionable, mentally unstable man starts to believe all the crazy things he hears on the internet, from all kinds of people, and merges it all into a worldview which is not left or right, just incurably insane.

I don't think pointing out that some of the rhetoric used in politics of late is irresponsible is uncalled for, especially when we're talking about an 'impressionable' man, as you describe him. The point isn't that there are politicians out for blood, but that they aren't thinking before they speak. That it is an accepted possibility that (for example) Palin's gunsights poster was a motivator for this impressionable individual should indicate just how grossly irresponsible that it is.

And a lot of other people who have made comments in speeches that suggest we take up arms against our representatives over things like health care reform could potentially be charged as well. Not that any would be convicted but simply prosecuting them may be enough to get the rhetoric toned down.

I'm not sure that that would achieve anything positive. There is no desire to promote violence by those that engage in such rhetoric. It's inadvertent and irresponsible. Charging them would seem too political, and could possibly even worsen the situation.
 
I'm not sure that that would achieve anything positive. There is no desire to promote violence by those that engage in such rhetoric. It's inadvertent and irresponsible. Charging them would seem too political, and could possibly even worsen the situation.

Maybe the fact that this finally happened will be enough to convince people like Palin and Beck to tone down their rhetoric, but since most of them live in their own realities I kind of doubt it. It will take something more egocentric...like the cops showing up at the door...to get their attention.
 
You like to talk about strawmen, then you pull Fox News into the discussion. Wtf. It has nothing to do with it. Beavis and Butt-Head were not responsible for kids burning their houses down (you do remember that controversy right?), and Fox News is not responsible for crazy people acting crazy.

There is a significant difference:
There allways was a pretty overwhelming consensus that burning down your house is a bad idea and not right (at the very least if you are a kid). Beavis and Butthead were the only dissenters from what most kids will probably still have percieved as a pretty strong demand from society, not to burn their house down.
The consensus that it's not right to solve political dispute with gunfire has suffered some significant erosion recently and is far from unanimous.
I don't want to blame that on the "right" exclusively. Allthough i have to admit that Angle is the first example that comes to my mind. I also have to admit that i am under the impression that of the congressmen who had their offices vandalized and suffered from a level of death threats that increased several 100% in quantity (from the "normal" one nut calling every other year) over the course of the last year most if not all were Democrats, most if not all of which were in favor of health care reform.
Does she call for armed violence as political means in that or is she merely fearmongering with fairy tales?
Maybe the fact that this finally happened will be enough to convince people like Palin and Beck to tone down their rhetoric, but since most of them live in their own realities I kind of doubt it. It will take something more egocentric...like the cops showing up at the door...to get their attention.
A plain loss of popularity would suffice.
(That's very different from an increase in unpopularity.)


Btw: Is there any new information on the possibility that the judge was the target?
 
Maybe the fact that this finally happened will be enough to convince people like Palin and Beck to tone down their rhetoric, but since most of them live in their own realities I kind of doubt it. It will take something more egocentric...like the cops showing up at the door...to get their attention.

I do think there will be increased pressure on them to tone down their message, and that pressure will probably have an effect. More so on Palin (she has her political ambitions to consider, and wouldn't want to damage them further) than Beck. I'm unsure that attempting to arrest them on dubious grounds would result in their respective stars waning (it would just give them more publicity, and justify for some their extreme rhetoric). I guess investigating their actions in the course of the investigation into this shooting would not be uncalled for, but I reckon the best pressure that could be applied is that from a public backlash.

Btw: Is there any new information on the possibility that the judge was the target?

Well, the BBC says the following:
Jared Loughner has so far been charged with one count of attempted assassination of a member of Congress, two of first degree murder and two of attempted murder.

A search of his home revealed a safe which held messages carrying the words "I planned ahead", "My assassination" and the word "Giffords", court documents said.

That would seem a fair indication that Giffords was the target.
 
That would seem a fair indication that Giffords was the target.
Ah. Sorry, i knew that.
I read somewhere that he might have hit the judge first and that made me ignore that for a second. :blush:
 
I'm not sure that that would achieve anything positive. There is no desire to promote violence by those that engage in such rhetoric. It's inadvertent and irresponsible. Charging them would seem too political, and could possibly even worsen the situation.

So Camikaze, this guy kills 6 people, including a child and a federal judge, in premeditated fashion. No death penalty?
 
So Camikaze, this guy kills 6 people, including a child and a federal judge, in premeditated fashion. No death penalty?
If he is mentallty ill as some here have claimed, death penalty?

Should he be more likely to get the death penalty because one of his victims was a Federal Judge? Would your opinion change if it was found he did not know the man was a federal judge?

Would you support the death penalty if all of his victims were private sector employees and none were children? If so, why bring up the status of two victims to make your death penalty case? Is that an acknowledgement that the type of victim may matter in enhancing punishment or elevating the chance at the death penalty?
 
Just jail him for life. What's the difference?

He could still kill other inmates in prison or other people if he managed to escape (which does occur on occasion). He cant if he is dead.

If he is mentallty ill as some here have claimed, death penalty?

Assuming he is competent. If he is insane, then no.

Should he be more likely to get the death penalty because one of his victims was a Federal Judge? Would your opinion change if it was found he did not know the man was a federal judge?

You dont think killing 6 people in a rampage heious enough on its own?
 
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