US military budget

[Patroklos]

You mean.. Japanese could not do the same thing every other military power (including US) has done in the last few centuries, because.

Because....that was in the past maybe?

Japan had no choice. They had no oil, no resources, no nothing. It had to have them. In that time, if you didn’t have them you were toast.

They didn't have them because they were raping and pillaging China, all they had to do was stop. This is not a chicken or the egg arguement.

 

[neviden]

Because....that was in the past maybe?

Gee.. I guess that is only my imagination that at that time there were colonies everywhere, half the world was already at war trying to get “lebensraum” or something like that and the other half was just waiting for a good excuse to join in the fun..

They didn't have them because they were raping and pillaging China, all they..

If US “acquired” Philippines in the war with Spain, that was “liberation”.. but if Japan “acquired” Part of China in war with China then.. this was “horrible, horrible barbarian act”.. Oh yes.. before you mention how this is completely different.. When Philippines wanted independence from US there were estimated 250.000 – 1.000.000 dead.

And to explain why they didn't have them: The thinking that day went something along the line "if you are weak you will get invaded and destroyed". They didn't want to be weak. To become strong they had to have resources. Japan didn't have them. Nobody would sell them. So they went "shopping" in China. Everybody else was doing the same thing, therefore it was quite hypocritical of them to point finger at what Japan was doing if they were doing the same thing.

 

[lovett]

China is second, but we still far surpass them.

Try Japan. Then Germany.
China is fourth

 

[Patroklos]

Gee.. I guess that is only my imagination that at that time there were colonies everywhere, half the world was already at war trying to get “lebensraum” or something like that and the other half was just waiting for a good excuse to join in the fun..

So what if there were colonies everywhere? Perhaps you should ask yourself when those colonies were aquired and whether colonial holdings were increasing or decrasing in1941 and the 25 years leading up to it.

And no, half the world was not fighting for lebenstrum, one country was. Half the world was fighting against that one country.

If US “acquired” Philippines in the war with Spain, that was “liberation”.. but if Japan “acquired” Part of China in war with China then.. this was “horrible, horrible barbarian act”..

50 years ealier. And notice we didn't fight the Phillipines for the Phillipines, we fought Spain. Note we did not have the aquisition of the Philllipines on our mind when we went to war with Spain in first place. So it is not the same as Japan diectly attacking China to take over China. Can you really not comprehend the concept?

Oh yes.. before you mention how this is completely different.. When Philippines wanted independence from US there were estimated 250.000 – 1.000.000 dead.

How does that somehow make it the same? Again, you really need to learn what a comparison is, there has to be a none trivial similarity. What your doing is setting up a strawman so weak it knocks itself down. In any case, you obviously don't know anything about that event anyway, wiki it and get back to me on why it obviously is not the same.

The thinking that day went something along the line "if you are weak you will get invaded and destroyed".

Really, thats what people were thinking in 1941? Maybe some poeple in Germany/Italy/Japan thought that, but the rest of the world certainly did not.

To become strong they had to have resources. Japan didn't have them. Nobody would sell them. So they went "shopping" in China.

Is that what was happening? China was providing resources instead of using them up?

Everybody else was doing the same thing, therefore it was quite hypocritical of them to point finger at what Japan was doing if they were doing the same thing.

Really, who else was aquiring colonies in the 1940s? Germany eh? Awesome role model, it worked out real well for them to.

 

[neviden]

Can you really not comprehend the concept?

The thing is, I do comprehend the concept, but the question is whether Japanese understood what was situation with colonies back then. With the benefit of hindsight I can clearly see that the whole concept of colonies was coming to an end. Back then it was not so clear. Witness how even long after WW2 many colonies had to fight long and hard to gain their independence. Japan "only" wanted something like UK had created in the past few centuries..

Really, thats what people were thinking in 1941? Maybe some poeple in Germany/Italy/Japan thought that, but the rest of the world certainly did not.

My point is not about whether what Japan was doing was right or wrong, but that it was predictable, since it was “business as usual” for the past few centuries. Was US aware how would very militarized state react to deliberate act to render them defenseless?

Look, I am not making those things up. All you have to do is look at historical facts. OK, maybe it was one of those diplomatic SNAFUs (I was not there, and some of those documents are still “secret”), but this one sure doesn’t look like one. Even Roosevelt knew what an oil embargo meant in relationship with Japan, yet he still went ahead with it..

 

[woody60707]

If US “acquired” Philippines in the war with Spain, that was “liberation”.. but if Japan “acquired” Part of China in war with China then.. this was “horrible, horrible barbarian act”.. Oh yes.. before you mention how this is completely different.. When Philippines wanted independence from US there were estimated 250.000 – 1.000.000 dead.

And to explain why they didn't have them: The thinking that day went something along the line "if you are weak you will get invaded and destroyed". They didn't want to be weak. To become strong they had to have resources. Japan didn't have them. Nobody would sell them. So they went "shopping" in China. Everybody else was doing the same thing, therefore it was quite hypocritical of them to point finger at what Japan was doing if they were doing the same thing.

Wow, is this how history is taught in your school system? That Japan was simply going shopping? and as for the Philippines, it's taught in the US school system that what the US did then was wrong.

To sum it up: two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[neviden]

To sum it up: two wrongs don't make a right.

I don't say they do. I am not even talking about wrongs they did. I am talking about US - Japan relationship.

Supposedly neutral US stopped selling Japan oil and steel, on the grounds of some hypocritical reason. At the same time US increased war supplies being sent to UK under Lend-Lease program. With US position clear and falling oil reserves, war practically became inevitable, since all diplomatic attempts at lifting oil embargo failed. Japan had to act before they ran out oil, so they attacked US pacific fleet to neutralize it and invaded European colonies that had what Japan needed to survive.

It would be hard to argue that it was good that stronger states could attack weaker states, but that was situation back then. Nukes changed that. 10 million men strong invading army could be wiped out with one bomb. Attacker’s country could be turned into parking lot with few ICBMs. No ICBMs - no safety from stronger state, and this is true even today. I will let everyone figure out who the "stronger state" is right now..

 

[warpus]

Japan had to act before they ran out oil, so they attacked US pacific fleet to neutralize it and invaded European colonies that had what Japan needed to survive.

Hmm something's wrong with your quote

Japan had to act before they ran out oil, so they attacked US pacific fleet to neutralize it and invaded European colonies that had what Japan needed to continue their expansion.

There, that's better.