US Study: Merit Pay for Teachers Does Nothing

Merit Pay for Teachers?


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I don't think you can isolate a single component like that and draw broad conclusions because there are so many differnet variables involved.

It doesn't matter how good the quality of the ingredients are when you make a cake if you don't have any flour.
 
I don't think you can isolate a single component like that and draw broad conclusions because there are so many differnet variables involved.

Well, if you're arguing that, then one can't advocate merit pay being better in the first place.
 
I'm pretty sure that I've seen reviews of studies that show that teachers have a significant effect on students' performance. Obviously, there are other variables: that's what the statistical sciences are for, after all. And we know that there are those other variables that are important, and how to influence them. But teacher's still matter.

Merit pay may not create incentive for bad teachers to become good: they just might not be able to do so. But it does incentivise them to leave the industry.

edit: missed a "not"
 
I have always thought these types of systems encourage teachers to teach students to simply score well on particular tests (The standardised tests which teacher's "performance" is based on).
 
I'm pretty sure that I've seen reviews of studies that show that teachers have a significant effect on students' performance. Obviously, there are other variables: that's what the statistical sciences are for, after all. And we know that there are those other variables that are important, and how to influence them. But teacher's still matter.

Merit pay may not create incentive for bad teachers to become good: they just might be able to do so. But it does incentivise them to leave the industry.

Yeah, you're are totally correct El Mac, research indicates that teachers are the most important variable.

I think people are drawing the wrong conclusion here. The study didn't try to answer anything about the effect of Merit Pay drawing people into the industry, or to certain school districts (that may still be possible, although I think we're getting a better idea on how to recruit better "teachers" using things without merit pay).

Even merit pay advocates don't expect this to be the final solution...nobody was expecting test score growth to go from bad to super awesome. What was surprising is that it didn't appear to move in any meaningful way.

The conclusion I am drawing from this, and one that I was kind of suspecting, was that more money is not a great incentive structure to get a teacher to move from so-so to great, unless the teacher wasn't trying hard to begin with. I don't believe teacher quality is static, it can be improved, but I think things like professional development and mentoring programs are better equipped to do that, rather than a cash prize. You can't improve if you don't know *how*.
 
Merit pay decided by student achievements in standardized tests...

You are all aware of the book Freakonomics by Levitt and Dubner? The first chapter in their book proves that teacher in the Chicago school system actually cheats with the tests to help students get a better score.

While I would like a merit system implemented to reward good teachers and sack bad teachers, I don't think standardized student tests are the correct way to measure a teacher's competence.

And, is this an American phenomenon, or do similar things happen in Canada/Europe/etc.?
Heard about the PISA tests, in which a country like Finland does really great, while countries like Norway and the USA spends much more money per student and gets worse results? While PISA isn't actually a merit test system for teachers, standardized testing isn't going away outside the USA either.

Norway also has standardized national tests btw. They haven't been used to measure teachers yet however, merely schools, but their existence is so controversial that the tests are sabotaged every time they are tried (tests stolen and distributed days before schedule, students not meeting up, or all answering the same way, etc.), and the results kept halfway secret so as not to publicly ridicule the students of bad schools...
 
I think it would be too logistically challenging to create an in-depth enough study that went nationwide, although there are possibly some geographic biases. What makes you think the results would be different in a place like say, Las Vegas, or Charlotte, or Indianapolis? There isn't a point in bringing Merit Pay to white suburbs. I'm genuinely curious.
If I may answer your question with a question, why then if it need not be brought to white suburbs was it tested in 300 math classrooms across the state and not in inner city schools in and outside of it? As to whether there is an inherent geographic bias, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility... but we don't know the effects of it because it was only tested in this one area.
 
First, an article in the WaPo that might clear up some misconceptions about the study, and it's effects http://ht.ly/2Ikni



If I may answer your question with a question, why then if it need not be brought to white suburbs was it tested in 300 math classrooms across the state and not in inner city schools in and outside of it? As to whether there is an inherent geographic bias, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility... but we don't know the effects of it because it was only tested in this one area.

Where does it say it was tested across the state? The parts I read said it was 300 Nashville teachers (although I can't confirm if thats NCS teachers, or NCS + Nashville Metro).

Other people might think that Merit pay could benefit white suburban areas...I'm personally not convinced it matters if a district doesn't have a problem passing state tests. Is there a difference between getting a 91 and a 97 on the state graduation exam? No. Maybe you could tie it to AP scores or something if you were rich, i dunno.

As for those concerned about cheating, there is already ample motive to try and fudge the results *without* merit pay (remember, if your school "fails", your butt might get fired, even if you were individually awesome). I feel like that is an issue for test security people/administrators.
 
The problem isn't the teachers' pay. It's the students.

AMEN! Thank you. I've been saying this for years. My job as a teacher would be massively less stressful if it weren't for all those damned teenagers lurking around my desk.

I have always thought these types of systems encourage teachers to teach students to simply score well on particular tests (The standardised tests which teacher's "performance" is based on).

In Texas, student advancement is also tied to the same test. Thus I can, with a clean conscience, really push the kids to do well on their exit-level TAKS tests. The test scores have been steadily improving state-wide, as each year the veteran teachers get better and better at teaching to the test. I'm guilty as a cat with his paw trapped in the canary cage. I mean, I definitely try to teach real history all year round. But the whole school pretty much blocks out 3 weeks of "TAKS prep" each year, as we drill and kill our kids in the subject areas they're to be tested in.

For the rest of the year I do my best to teach critical thinking skills along with the rah-rah patriotism I'm paid to deliver.


One problem with a merit pay system is teachers will avoid difficult school systems. They already have one reason to do that (working conditions), and with merit pay they'd have another (getting paid less than they would at a better school).

Actually just about every merit pay system pays teachers with a "value added" formula. Merit pay is based on how much kids improve their scores year to year compared to each student's projected improvement rate relative to (a) the previous year's improvements and (2) performance norms demonstrated for all other students in their socio-economic status.

For example, if a white middle class kid in a rural community normally makes a 5% jump in test score performance between 4th and 5th grade, but one teachers' white middle class kids improve by 7%, then that teacher has provided "added value" to those students' educational experience and ought to be rewarded.

Of course the system still sucks. It turns out that if you get your 5th grade students from last years' particularly inept teacher who added no value to her kids' testing, it greatly increases your chance of adding extra value to the normative growth rate of the students--and thus increases your chances of getting a bigger bonus than your fellow 5th grade teachers.

The system is horrible, however I'm getting some of the biggest classroom teacher bonuses in the district, thanks to how the demographic dice roll at my particular school. So I support the corrupt inefficient system cause I got a kid in college and I'm damn poor.
 
So I support the corrupt inefficient system cause I got a kid in college and I'm damn poor.
:lol:

The St Pete Times had an interesting story about this topic this morning:

http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/study-teacher-bonuses-alone-dont-affect-student-test-scores/1123157

The results suggest that teachers in the study already were working so hard that the lure of extra money failed to induce them to intensify their efforts or change methods.

"Pay reform is often thought to be a magic bullet," said Matthew Springer, a Vanderbilt University education professor who led the study in Nashville public schools. "That doesn't appear to be the case here. We need to develop more thoughtful and comprehensive ways of thinking about compensation. But at the same time, we're not even sure whether incentive pay is an effective strategy for improving the system itself."
The premise here seems to be that the typical public school teacher is lazy and doesn't try very hard because he is so underpaid compared to other professions. That paying him more should get him to make an even greater effort than he already does. That is probably true with some mediocre teachers who are mostly in it for the retirement plan, but I think it is an insult to the typical professional educator.

We should pay public school teachers more because they are underpaid. Eventually, there will be less teachers who are going along for the free ride because of supply and demand. As long as there is a shortage of teachers due to the lousy pay, the bad ones will continue to have jobs no matter how badly they perform.
 
Not sure why people are still debating this, but let me make the point again

The Washington Post said:
The study, which the authors and other experts described as the first scientifically rigorous review of merit pay in the United States, measured the effect of financial incentives on teachers in Nashville public schools and found that better pay alone was not enough to inspire gains.

Advocates of performance pay did not immediately challenge the methodology of the study.

If it's good enough for the Peabody Research Institute, it's good enough for me.

We should pay public school teachers more because they are underpaid. Eventually, there will be less teachers who are going along for the free ride because of supply and demand. As long as there is a shortage of teachers due to the lousy pay, the bad ones will continue to have jobs no matter how badly they perform.

We don't have a shortage of teachers. We have the opposite problem actually...too many teachers. We have a shortage of GOOD teachers.
 
We don't have a shortage of teachers. We have the opposite problem actually...too many teachers. We have a shortage of GOOD teachers.
That is obviously what I meant. I wasn't suggesting there was an actual lack of warm bodies to stand in front of students and be completely incompetent at their jobs. But until the supply and demand curve is leveled out by paying teachers sufficiently well compared to other professions, that is exactly what you are going to have. There simply aren't enough people who are dedicated enough to do a proper job while being chronically underpaid to do so.
 
That is obviously what I meant. I wasn't suggesting there was an actual lack of warm bodies to stand in front of students and be completely incompetent at their jobs. But until the supply and demand curve is leveled out by paying teachers sufficiently well compared to other professions, that is exactly what you are going to have. There simply aren't enough people who are dedicated enough to do a proper job while being chronically underpaid to do so.

You know, I'm just not totally sure that's true. It is certainly partly true, but if you're willing to put up with 25 years in a crappy school, your final salary really isn't that bad (considering how easy it is to get a teaching degree and get credentialed). TOP teacher salary in Greater New Orleans was in the upper 70's, and in ChicagoLand (for some of the suburbs) it was in the upper 80s.

I think the "social capital gap" has other factors besides raw salary...the "prestige" of the position (pretty low, and these new reforms demean teaching even more), the lack of advancement potential, and quality of life. Right now, teaching is viewed (unfairly or not) as a secondary household income (something the wife does while the man has another job), a temporary job that requires some sort of missionary zeal, or what dumb sorority girls major in.

I made a lot more money teaching than in the jobs I've had since, and honestly, I don't think I would try to go back even in they increased my salary by another 10K.

It is self selected. The study is about as useful as an online poll.
That doesn't necessarily mean the study is worthless. Besides, it would have been completely unethical to create a similar survey without it being opt-in.
 
The status is a lot like being a soldier. You get a lot of respect, and a lot of contempt, as the political winds blow. Since people tend to notice negative comments more easily than positive ones, these attacks on status must be wearing.
 
The status is a lot like being a soldier. You get a lot of respect, and a lot of contempt, as the political winds blow. Since people tend to notice negative comments more easily than positive ones, these attacks on status must be wearing.

Yeah, I think that is fair. Teachers in "disadvantaged" places in the states are also often referred to as Missionaries, which I thought was pretty strange...having actually BEEN a missionary. I don't think the two jobs are very similar at all...but everybody, from parents to principals to policymakers, certainly seems to think so.
 
That doesn't necessarily mean the study is worthless. Besides, it would have been completely unethical to create a similar survey without it being opt-in.

Why do you think that? They are professionals after all. A performance study ought to be just part of the job. It would be for any other profession.
 
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