USA accepts 1967 borders

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Silurian, May 19, 2011.

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  1. NickyJ

    NickyJ Retired Narrator

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    :agree: I'm NickyJ, and I approve this post. :agree:
     
  2. MikeL49NYVI

    MikeL49NYVI Warlord

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    I think you have it right, but also the Assyrians took the land over, as well as later on, the Egyptians, then the Greeks and then the Romans, and eventually the Arabs. But throughout all of that, the Jews were still there, at least a remmant of them.
     
  3. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    That is hardly unusual. You can still find Zoroastrians in parts of Iran despite being conquered by Persia, Greeks, Parthia, Persia, Arabs, Abbasids, Buyids, Seljuks, Khwarzmians, Mongols, Safvids, and so on. Minorities tend to endure in areas where they are from as long as they don't go out of their way to antagonize the local rulers.
     
  4. MikeL49NYVI

    MikeL49NYVI Warlord

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    A very fair question, and kinda of gets right to the heart of the matter. I think that the Palestine position of including groups like Hamas and now Fatah, plus insisting on just the 1967 borders and nothing else, plus refusing to ever recgonize Israel is not going to inspire any meaningful discussions. So I think they should be willing to give Israel at least some of what they want, to at least begin the talks. All they accomplish by their hard stance is to force Israel to take a hard stance of their own.

    I seriously wonder if they really want a seperate country, and peace, or are just using this as an excuse to keep fighting, and get the rest of the world to go against Israel.


    So then why isn't all of this directed again Jordan as well? Why not put pressure on them? If I remember right, wasn't Jordan originally set up as a home for the Palestinians? Why just dump all of the trouble on Israel? This reinforces my last sentence above


    I can't really say about the others, but President Bush said that going back to the 1967 borders was "unrealistic".
    I'll assume here that the 1967 borders has been the policy of these other presidents you named: It is clear that this policy has not been all that successful then, isn't it? Maybe we should try something else then. A definition of insanity is doing the same thing, the same way, over and over, and expecting a different result each time.

    But, if I am right, and the Palestinian leaders do not really want anything but the elimination of Israel from the face of the earth, then no peace proposal, or settlement, stands a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding.
     
  5. MikeL49NYVI

    MikeL49NYVI Warlord

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    Agreed:
    All I was pointing out was that the Jews have been there for a very long time, at least as long as the Palestianians. I was not going down the "divine squatters' rights road"

    Are you saying here that if the Palestianians do not antagonize the Jews (local rulers) then they should be able to endure in their areas?
     
  6. NickyJ

    NickyJ Retired Narrator

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    You are right. The Palestinians are nothing more than a bunch of rabblerousers just itching to wipe Jews off the face of the earth. Nothing more. Because they want to eliminate Israel, Israel has to take a hard stance.

    Moderator Action: Saying that an entire group of people are "nothing more than a bunch of ..." is inappropriate.
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  7. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    To quote Maggie Thatcher:
    "No, no, no, no, no."
    Read over the first part of this thread to understand why the concept of Jordan as a 'home for the Palestinians' is rediculous, it was described by people far wiser and eloquent then myself.

    If I recall, whenever Bush started talks between Palestine and Israel he used the 1967 borders as the starting point. All other elements were either political talking points or wishful thinking. The 1967 borders offer the best hope for a peacesettlement. Palestine gets most of their land, Israel gets most of the useful parts, and all that is left is the Jerusalem issue which could be resolved.
    However, Israel needlessly complicated matters with the settlements which were of dubious legal validity and did little more then to completely piss off the Palestinians and allow the Israelis to claim that 'if Palestine is a state, just think of what will happen to all these poor settlers'. Obama tried to get Israel to agree to a freeze on settlements, and Netanyahu refused ruining any chance for a negotiation. Wikileaks confirmed that the Palestinian negotiator made numerous concessions to Israel but even with all of those concessions, Israel refused to stop building settlements. The problem, on a diplomatic level, rests with Israel. While the actions taken by some Palestinians may not result in Israel being endeared to them (and Israel returning the favor by forcing the Palestinians into a legal limbo), Palestine has proved more then willing to make concessions. The problem is with Israel, not Palestine.

    The Jews and the local inhabitants of Palestine, in antiquity, were from the same ethnic stock. The whole 'exile to Egypt' story can safely be discounted as there is no record of a massive Hebrew Slave revolt in Egyptian records. After the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans, many Jews left in the Diaspora. Centuries passed. Many of the residents of Palestine became Muslim, and more time passed. In the 19th century the idea of 'Zionism' began being kicked around Europe by Theodore Hertzl. After WWII Britain got fed up with the near civil war in Palestine between the Arabs and the Jews so they told the UN to vote on it. Due to Cold War politics (and expert political maneuvering by Russia), Israel came into existance despite being primarily a European Jew movement. Zionism had little atraction initialy for the Jews already living in Palestine.
    In short, those who dearly wanted the creation of Israel were foreigners kicking the natives off their land claiming that 'it was their ancestors' despite the Palestinians and Jews both having the same ancestor.

    My, aren't you letting out the inner Palmach militant tonight? Any plans at the King David Hotel later?

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  8. NickyJ

    NickyJ Retired Narrator

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    Nope. You?
     
  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Redacted as I have no wish to accumulate another infraction today.
     
  10. Moss

    Moss CFC Scribe Retired Moderator

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    Moderator Action: Ajidica and Nicky...quit the arguing.
     
  11. Arwon

    Arwon

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    It must also be the case that many Palestinians are partially descended from the ancient Jewish population. Which is a cute little irony.
     
  12. SimSimSalabim

    SimSimSalabim Chieftain

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    Quite. I begin to wonder if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be concluded peacefully and benefically to both parties within my lifetime.
     
  13. kochman

    kochman Deity

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    France helped the USA become the USA by siding with the colonies versus the Brits...
    The nascent USA didn't get involved in the French Revolution, because it was a civil war... not an attempt to overthrow a colonial power. There is a difference.
    We didn't help France when Napoleon came to power... does that make us traitors? Or wise?
    We helped France in WW1 and WW2, that's for sure.

    Finland was attacked by the USSR before WW2 broke out also, pushing them to become allies with Germany... Let's not forget that.

    Hey, we bought LA fair and square!

    I agree... ship the Palestinians out completely, then there is no need for apartheid.
    There is no apartheid in Israel proper. Druze Arabs (Christian and Muslim) are allowed to vote and have full legal rights.

    Israel is prepared to give up the strip, last time I checked.

    Very good point.

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:
     
  14. Cheezy the Wiz

    Cheezy the Wiz Socialist In A Hurry

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    He is referring to the Quasi-War.

    They were friends long before 1940.

    Ethnic cleansing is now the solution? So then why ship out the Arabs? It is the Israelis who have systematically settled and evicted Palestinian land illegally over the past 40 years.

    Druze are members of a religion. You seem to be confused.

    And will the blockade end? Will the Israelis do anything to help right the immense wrongs in Gaza?

    No it's not, it's a very badly worded, disgustingly bad point.

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  15. MikeL49NYVI

    MikeL49NYVI Warlord

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    OK, looking at one of the links provided, earlier in the post I came across this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War

    Here is a quote from that article:
    This was the meaning of my comment. Jordan seems to have had as much a part of the total unrest in 1948 as anyone, perhaps more. So why do you and others say it was all Israel's fault? Why isn't anyone going after Jordan to be accountable for their actions?Why is on one telling Jordan they have to give up some of their land?

    As I read more, I saw that Israel accepted the partition lines, as a bare minimun, but they still accepted it. The Plaestinians did not, and the Arab League moved in to Palestine, and if I get the time-line correct, blockaded the Jewish sector of Jerusalem off from the rest of the country, threatening to starve them out. That is a pretty good description of a seige. Not much of a peaceful action, I'd say.


    President Bush clearly said that returning to the 1967 borders was not realistic, due to the current situation. There is no other way to interpet that. And it seems that those who wish to try to put all the balame on Israel are forgetting the Olso talks, that Bill Clinton organized.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

    If you read all of this you will see that Israel agreed to the compromise, but problems arose.

    "Palestinian reactions were also divided. Fatah, the group that represented the Palestinians in the negotiations, accepted the accords. But Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine objected to the accords because their own charters refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist in Palestine."

    And the entire thing deteriorated from there. To where in December last year the Palestianians said they are not bound by the Olso Accords.

    It seems and reads to me like there is enough blame to go around for everyone to share in.


    Sorry, but I do not see how anyone can reasonably state that the entire thing is Israel's fault, when the Palestinians steadfastly refuse to their right to exist as a nation. What exactly are these concessions that the Palestinians have made, or are willing to make? You agree that the actions of some of the Palestianians have served to inflame the situation. So how is Israel supposed to take that, and respond?
    Just to clarify: There are two positions that I am NOT taking here. 1) I do not think that Israel is blameless. 2) I do not think that all the Plaestianian people want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, and they do NOT pose a threat to that nation.

    But I do take the position that certain Arab terriorists organizations are determined to exterminate Israel. They have been very public about it. And I believe that they think it is in their best interest to keep the conflict going, and to do all they can to prevent a settlement from occuring. This includes keeping their own people in a very unfortunate state of not having a real home.

    Except for the reference to the Old Testament history I agree with what you have written here. My question then is if they all have a common ancestory, then why is your last sentence worded like that? According to your history, both the Jews and the Arabs are native to that land, so no one should have been kicked off of it. Yes it was manily European Jews, but where did they come from originally?
    And considering what had happened to them under Hitler. And considering what Stalin was doing to them. Providing a place for the Jews, in their old homeland, with the Jews that were still there, and had always been there, seems reasonable enough to me.

    And, as you rightly said, the Brits got tired of having to step in between the constant fighting, that they get the UN to intervene. And the UN said that there should be two states, so they could hopefully leave each other alone.

    But wait, it was primarily Jordan, an Arab state, that said no way, we are not going to give part of our new land to the Palestinians. Let them go fight it out with the Jews. This looks alot to me like the Jordanians were getting the Palestinians to fight their war instead of them doing it themselves.

    But it is all Israel's fault?
     
  16. MikeL49NYVI

    MikeL49NYVI Warlord

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    You are right, it is quite ironic, and tragic at the same time
     
  17. CaptainF

    CaptainF The Professional Poster

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    Hey guys, let's barge in on someone's land that they've been living on since forever, and make it our own! That won't piss anyone off, right?
     
  18. Whiskey_Lord

    Whiskey_Lord Deity

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    Our friends across the lake say that Jesus wants it, so yeah.
     
  19. Arwon

    Arwon

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    MikeL49NYVI: Jordan and Israel have a peace treaty. Part of which is a recognition by Israel that Jordan is not Palestine and Jordanian abandonment of claims to the West Bank. The two countries recognise each other's borders, sovereignty and political independence. Both also recognise, via the related negotiations with the Palestinians, that the Palestinian Authority is the government of the Palestinian people in the territory comprising the West Bank and Gaza.

    It would violate the treaty for an Israeli government to push for Jordan to become an officially Palestinian (Palestinian-majority, in fact) state to which the populations of the West Bank and Gaza should move, as an alternative to a state being esablished in the West Bank and Gaza.

    The best that can be hoped for is, as part of a final status agreement, Jordanian concessions on citizenship for refugees currently living within Jordan. This would also have to bring in the wider Arab League and get them to at least partially modify their "no citizenship for Palestinian refugees" stance (the agreement would probably involve Palestinian Authority concessions on the right of return to Israel proper, in exchange for Israeli compensation payouts for property in Israel proper, and Arab granting of citizenship to refugees in their own countries who choose not to return to the Palestinian state).

    End of discussion, really. Jordan cannot be used as a method of denying a state in the West Bank and Gaza.
     
  20. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Uh what? We bought Louisiana, yes we paid them for their property, hardly stealing, furthermore they proposed the deal...

    California was nominally part of Mexico (not Spain)...
     
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