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USA and China Vrs. World! (in a "fair war")

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Eukaryote, Jun 19, 2008.

?

So who would win this crazy war?

  1. United States and China.

    47.4%
  2. The world

    52.6%
  1. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    So, after reading through this thread I'm inclined to agree with Patroklos et al. But, I want to play devil's advocate and offer a war plan for the rest of the world.

    The main goal will be to cut off the US and China from resources, oil in particular, and force them to sue for peace. I don't see any reasonable scenario where the rest of the world could actually invade and occupy the US and/or China.

    In Canada, Mexico, and South America, guerrila warfare would be the primary tactic. Tie up as much of the US army as possibly by retreating to remote locations (northern canada, or the mountains of south america). Blow up oil refineries, if necessary, to prevent them from being captured by the US. Terrorist attacks inside the US would also be effective, especially targeting US oil refineries in Texas and the gulf of Mexico. Latin America would also work to spread propaganda among Latinos inside the USA. A wide spread race riot could shut down the economy of Texas, California, and the southwest, and possibly even cause some US military to defect.

    Some strategic retreats would be necessary. Rebase the air force of Canada to Europe. Rebase the air forces of Japan, Taiwan, and Australia into the Korean peninsula. Most likely, after that, Japan and Australia would be of no further aid, but that's OK. They will focus simply on keeping the US navy busy.

    Use these combined air forces, combined with the entire ground force of North Korea, to drive into China as fast as possible. The USA would probably only have carrier-based aircraft ready to react, which would be outnumbered badly, and Chinas would be badly out-teched by South Korea, Australia and Japan. The focus of these battles would not be on gaining territory, but simply to maintain a flow of resources from Russia into this area, and to disrupt transportation inside China as much as possible. In particular, try to disrupt the flow of food from the interior of China, to the coast where most of the population is located. If the Chinese government is unable to feed it's citizens, or even it's military, it will quickly collapse.

    I'm going to ignore Africa, since I can't imagine them doing anything in such a conflict. If anything, this would help the USA since we wouldn't have to send them foreign aid :lol:

    Europe would focus all it's efforts on maintaining control of the middle east, and destroying any location from which the USA is drawing resources. England would be a big liability, since it imports almost all of it's food, but there are ways around this problem. Probably some ground forces can be diverted to help the fight against China. All production will be focused on navy, air, and AA and simply denying the USA the use of strategic resources.

    If the USA is denied ANY foreign oil, as well as other resources, and the Chinese government collapses, the USA would eventually be forced to give up.
     
  2. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    I really can't see this turning into anything other than a costly stalemate. Sure, the US and China can inflict much damage and in some cases destroy the entire armed forces of some nations, but I doubt they could conquer and hold entire continents. I don't think the necessary logistics capability exists to supply armies of such a large order of magnitude. Both aggressors will be able to annex large swathes of territory, and then their attacks will grind to a halt. And no matter how advanced, air forces and navies cannot hold down land territory.
     
  3. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    Dogbert argument FTW!
     
  4. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    I need to finish my report! Okay:

    Year Two: The Mexican Civil War is resolved with the invasion of the Yucatan and amphibious landings from Cuba on Mexican soil by Global Alliance forces. Mexico City is seized, and a 20 mile wide border is set up next to the US for the gangs to duke it out over the cocaine trade. The United States takes Cuba. To the north, American forces consolidate control over Canada (lotta c's there), but the Canadian gov't-in-exile resists control by cooperating with the brown people in Toronto and Vancouver. Iceland is attacked by European NATO forces, and Tibet is annexed by a joint Indo-Pakistani operation. South Korea pushes through the DMZ with the Japanese Defense Forces, and P'yong'yang is captured.

    Year Three: Everything goes to crap. Pressed for survival, China detonates several nuclear weapons over high population centers in East Asia. In response, India, Russia, and Europe nuke out China...then the US.

    Everyone except the US and China wins.
     
  5. Rashiminos

    Rashiminos Fool Prophet

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    For the purposes of this scenario, use of nuclear weapons is prohibited.

    I'm also surprised that there hasn't been much discussion of disrupting the command and control structures of both sides. I'm sure satellites would be priority targets.
     
  6. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    You forgot the part where the Xiongnu break through the Great Wall and raze Beijing to the ground. Modu Shanyu II declares himself Emperor and Lord of all China and proceeds to crush his enemies, see them driven before him and hear the lamentations of their women.
     
  7. Aegis

    Aegis Deity

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    They wouldn't have to patrol the entire African coast. All they would need to do is control the Mediterranean and European access points.
     
  8. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    Of course it is in fact totally possible to patrol the whole African coast as well, there being a limited number of harbors suitable for modern merchant shipping.

    But yeah there is no need too. The Suez will be a caved in ruin, and there is an excellet choke point seperating the North and South Atlantic.
     
  9. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Just wondering, what is the casus belli for this war? It has to be heavily justified or internal dissent at the home fronts and armies will severely hamper their war efforts. I can say that the rest of the world will be very willing to fight since it is their survival and freedom that is at stake. I just can't see this happening without the US turning into a virtual police state, and I am sure the population would not like that very much. And a prolonged, costly war on this scale might just be the last straw that initiates revolt against the Chinese government.
     
  10. AceChilla

    AceChilla Goedheiligman

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    And then you don't even mention India and Pakistan whose combined forced both outgun and outnumber the Chinese massively. Add them to the equation and there can be no other conclusion than that China will be toast.

    So how can you still support Patroklos in his analysis that the USA and China will win? Do you think the US can take on the world world singlehandidly?
     
  11. Aegis

    Aegis Deity

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    Pakistan is already on the verge of imploding. Aside from that, they hate India almost as much as Palestine hates Israel. Even further, the reason this scenario is plausible at all is because of the strong defensive positions China and US have on their own turf. Pakistan and India together would not be able to mount an offensive through the mountains and into China.
     
  12. AceChilla

    AceChilla Goedheiligman

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    Let's not factor internal politics into this scenario because when you start to do that anything can happen. I don't think the US and Chinese population will be looking forward to the a war with the whole world either so it is pretty feasable their populations will revolt as well...

    But like I said those factors should be discarded otherwise anything can happen.

    Now of course India and Pakistan are not in a favorable position to launch an offensive into mainland China, however I am pretty sure that given enough time they will be able to put their forces to use against China in a combined assault with whole south east Asia, Russia, Japan, Australia, Indonesia and North and South Korea.

    India has the second largest army in the world looking purely at manpower, Pakistan is pretty close to that. Those are massive forces just looking at the numbers. China is assualted from every angle. They will simply be overwelmed, certainly not able to secure any resources which they will need to do to keep their military in fighting shape. So China will lose.
     
  13. Aegis

    Aegis Deity

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    Size of the world's militaries:

    1) China
    2) USA
    3) India
    4) Russia
    5) N. Korea
    6) S. Korea
    7) Pakistan

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_size_of_armed_forces

    Unless you were referring to what they could mobilize. Even then, it's not about how many people you can get to fight. It's more about being able to train and outfit your troops and being able to project your power.
     
  14. Patroklos

    Patroklos Deity

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    It is impossible to not come to the conclusion after reading this thread that a significant portion of the posters here think the continent of Asia is made up solely of uniformly flat grasslands at an average of 75 degrees.
     
  15. AceChilla

    AceChilla Goedheiligman

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    If you are referring to me, I do not think that. I'm just saying that even taking into account all these geographical difficulties in assualting mainland China which are massive, the conclusion still has to be China will be overwelmed. And if not that, at least not able to launch a massive offensive needed to secure any resources to sustain a prolonged war. And thus they will lose in the long run.

    What is the point? That India is not second?

    People's Republic of China People's Republic of China ** 2,250
    United States of America ** 1,452
    India ** 1,325

    You are right they are almost second, which still makes them the Indian army an enormous force to be reconned with. Also from you link:

    Airforces representing; fighters, bombers, and attack aircraft.

    United States of America 3,022 235 388
    Russian Federation 2,295 368 767
    India 1500 500 320
    People’s Republic of China 1,445 120 380

    Which shows the Indian airforce being larger than the Chinese. In a world war India can relocate their airforce to any place in the world they seem suitable to attack China....

    On your other point. Ofcourse it's not all about manpower but the Indian and Pakistani forces are comparable qua quality with the Chinese army. And remember its not only India and Pakistan, It whole south east asia, Japan, Russia, Australia etc.
     
  16. Aegis

    Aegis Deity

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    No point, just tossing the actual numbers out there. It is noteworthy that Pakistan and India combined still have 275k fewer troops than China. Russia would put them on top in terms of numbers, but China still has the favorable ground and won't have the logistical nightmares of the World.

    Any island nation can be taken out of the equation immediately because of the US Navy. All China would realistically have to worry about would be Russia, India and Pakistan. N. Korea would easily be starved out because China is the one feeding them.

    Even if the US didn't control the seas, Japan, Polynesia, Australia, etc. would not be able to project their power.
     
  17. Squarg

    Squarg Awesomesauce

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    Yes but China will be on the defensive on the Indian front because of the concentration on Siberia. The terrain in between India and China is mostly easily defensible jungle or mountains.
    Except you forget the fact that China has better fighters and the US would probably send a large portion of its air force to China after the initial Canada/Mexico annexations and nothing beats F-22's.
    Most of the fighting would occur in Russia and SE Asia but Japan will be out of it immediately because of its lack of an army and the fact that there are still US troops there from WWII. Also our large force in South Korea would easily cause a disposition of the Government and also create a 2 front war for NK (the people would probably surrender because of lack of foreign aid and food within weeks).
     
  18. Aegis

    Aegis Deity

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    I'm pretty certain N & S Korea could squash the US forces stationed there if they wanted to.
     
  19. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    I'm pretty sure that their airforces don't have the range to attack China at all, and I don't think there'd enough resources available to move their air force into a position where it would actually be useful.
     
  20. Loki130

    Loki130 I remember when...

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    I've consulted with a friend, and he's of the opinion that the Israelis and arabs working together will cause a paradox, and a black hole will appear in the middle east. I find it hard to disagree with him.
     

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