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USA. Health and Overwork

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Zardnaar, Sep 17, 2020.

  1. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao King

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    The summer time has been almost okay in some of the states of USA unless you were in Miami, Florida or Houston, Texas.

    What will concern the most is when the winter begins and people have to gather indoors more when both Covid-19 and influenza are active at the same time.

    Also check the total unemployed U.S. populations, it has been at the record-high levels since April 2020. Cannot really feel relieved until that number drops below 1 million.
     
  2. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I would dispute that the level of healthcare you receive is of noticably higher in quality than what I would get here. From what I've read it is the expensive specialists where American healthcare is better in terms of waiting times and having access to top doctors. From my own anecdotal experience, each time I've had to go to the hospital, I got excellent care

    The $6,600 you cite seems to be what Canada spends on healthcare per capita. I am not so sure that's comparable to what you pay out of pocket. But I'd love to see a citation. Even if that's what the average Canadian pays for healthcare, this would imply that the rich (who can afford to pay out of pocket for specialists or what have you) drive this average up for the rest of us peasants.

    The problem with this, aside from all that, is there still continue to be many stories coming out of the U.S. of somebody having to pay thousands of dollars for an ambulance ride, super expensive drugs, and hundreds of thousands for simple operations. Horror stories of people going bankrupt and even avoiding the ambulance are very common. It's a very broken system. Just because it's working out for you doesn't mean that it's a good system by any means.
     
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  3. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao King

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    I would say "Stay at Home" orders have worked out nicely for me which doesn't mean it'll be ideal all other people.

    If you ask the top 1% of the rich Americans including President Trump, they'll tell you that everything functions excellently in the United States despite where the remaining 99% stand at.
     
  4. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    If I'm living in a bubble, it is a giant bubble. If your standard is that out of 331 million people, everyone's going to have it great, we're never going to live up to your expectations, but most really don't have it that bad here. The sky isn't falling... Life is actually going along as normal as could be expected for huge swaths of our country, but squeaky wheels get oil, as the saying goes. I'm a drop out, yet carved out a decent life. My friends are all drop outs, and most did too. You don't need a silver spoon to make it here.

    I'm not in the 1% nor would I say everything is excellent, but people are very dramatic (case in point, someone inferring that 99% of the people here have it tough, which is rediculous).
     
  5. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao King

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    Depending on which state you are living in. New York City was hit really hard during March to May 2020 which Governor Andrew Cuomo has described as the hell.

    As far as I understand, 70% of the people in the more rural states such as Montana and Wyoming still feel pretty safe for their normal lives.
     
  6. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    I only said things are as normal as could be expected - no one has it completely normal. I haven't been to the office since March and am dealing with home schooling now. But, I certainly don't feel like the entire place is on the brink of collapse by any means.
     
  7. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    No my standard is you shouldn't have this crap on that scale.

    Sure we're not perfect here either and have social problems.
     
  8. JPetroski

    JPetroski Deity

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    Well you're right it's crap, but it's just different crap... We have different opportunities too. Each place has its pros and cons. I'll bet more than a few Europeans feel owning a home with an acre of land is outside of their reach. That's fairly attainable here, for example.
     
  9. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao King

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    Some of my friends and their friends said they would never go to Minneapolis due to the continuous riots and protests. The top solution is to stay out of the big U.S. cities, however just New York City + Los Angeles + Chicago + Houston + Phoenix + Atlanta + Miami + Minneapolis compose a huge fraction of the total U.S. population.
     
  10. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    For some perspective from an American healthcare worker. . .

    My premium for a family of five is ~300/month, so 3600 annual. The company pays and additional 900/month, so 10,800 annual. Divided 14,400/5 = 2880 per jsut for premiums. Any hospital visit is auto 300, but billed at around 3k (should recall I work at the hospital). Any other visit is 50, but billed at around 300. You can see how this quickly eclipses the 6600 per person even in a young healthy family especially when all the hidden costs are taken into account. Meanwhile ~100 million Americans have no healthcare coverage and I see everyday people who are dying because they could not get to a doctor before their disease was so bad that they could no longer be in denial about it. It should be considered a human rights violation what goes on down here.

    Its dog****.
     
  11. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Crazy.
     
  12. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    I quit paying ER bills altogether over a decade ago. Every few years I get a letter saying that some Christian charity has paid off an old bill or paid one down to an amount that they won't bother trying to collect (they never have either way.)
     
  13. amadeus

    amadeus As seen on OT

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    There are many problems, but the problems aren’t solved by lying to people and saying it’s a free market system when it isn’t. People believe it, and they call for more intervention, and the price still goes up. This has been going on for decades.

    Should the U.S. have a national health service? Maybe. It depends on how it’s designed, how it’s paid for, and how treatments are rationed. Let’s at least get rid of that FDR dinosaur of work-tied untaxed insurance benefit, that was a scam back in the forties due to his dunderheaded wartime price controls. Thanks a lot, jerk.

    I don’t know much about the system other than a few data points, but jeez, it seems like doctors are paid a lot more than their foreign counterparts even though outcomes don’t seem to be that much better. This is true for university education too, and what with med school bills being what they are.
     
  14. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Yea and even with a charity paying that off it still is being covered by others in their insurance costs (the defaulted debt) and state taxes. In the end the economist is always right about there being no free lunch, its a matter of how we going about paying for it. Right now we in the US are paying in the dumbest way possible so that a significant minority of people can have better healthcare then most of the rest of the world. I consider this A) financially stupid and B) morally bankrupt.
     
  15. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Yea docotor pay is out of control here, our local oncologists and orthopedic doctors are all going to 700k and this has been a bad year for them. (should note we are in rural america too btw, this isn't LA or anything).

    I looked it up and did the math once and doctor pay was ~5% of national GDP. . .that means 1/20 dollars worth of services produced in the US ends up in the hands of a doctor. . .1/5 ends up in the hands of the healthcare industry including insurance companies at this point.

    https://www.brookings.edu/research/a-dozen-facts-about-the-economics-of-the-u-s-health-care-system/
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  16. Bugfatty300

    Bugfatty300 Buddha Squirrel

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    I've always figured the charities are only there to keep people from challenging system in court or keep it from collapsing altogether like we're about to see with housing soon.
     
  17. Truthy

    Truthy Chatbot

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    I wouldn't say this is the most accurate depiction in the world. 80-hour weeks in programming/software engineering is very uncommon in the US, whether you're talking about the Bay Area or not, 6-figures or not.

    Cases where I think this sounds roughly correct: some (but definitely not all or even most) startups, Amazon if you look at the weeks where they have lots of on-call hours, Google/Facebook if you count all the time their employees spend at work while not actually working (lots of them eat all their meals on campus, exercise or take fitness classes on campus, socialize on campus, go to lots of talks and presentations on campus, etc), extremely senior people, exceptionally busy periods (something critical broke, big release, etc), and people who are exceptionally bad at working diligently and finishing things in a timely manner.

    Data-wise: see the American respondents to the Stackoverflow Developer survey. Median American salary for every type of developer in the survey is >= $100k, while the mean American work-week is 41.8 hours. And since that's the average, it's biased upwards by whoever works 80 hours/week, yet still isn't all that high. Pretty suggestive that American developers who make 6 figures do so without working anywhere near 80-hour weeks.

    Anecdotally: yeah... I just do not at all think 80 hours/week is very uncommon in the US, Bay Area or not. Specifically going with places like Google, Facebook, and Microsoft: the norm is around 40 hours/week +/-, say, 5 or 10 hours depending on how diligent the employee is, how quickly they finish things, how much they choose to work extra, or how obsessed they are with making L{n+1}, and so on. However, people who work much more than that are typically seen as overdoing it or doing something wrong, like not managing their time well or otherwise being unable to get their work done at a reasonable pace. Many places, including Google and Facebook, even have explicit "no heroes" and "don't burn yourself out" policies. The company doesn't want you to work that much and managers don't want you to work that much. And if you walk around places like Facebook or Google at 8 pm, you will see some people still working, but the reaction from others is usually "jesus, why are these people still here?"

    On the off chance Canadian expats are unusually assiduous... I also know some Canadian expats in the Bay Area. I'm pretty sure they don't work 80 hours/week. I've also heard them echo sentiments nearly identical to what @MaryKB said about Canada vs the US. I.e., for them (though perhaps not the average Canadian), moving to the US was a very good decision, the US is a better place to be in tech, they make more, they're more productive, more career opportunities, and so on. I don't think love of money to the detriment of quality of life is why so many graduates from schools like U Toronto head to the US.
     
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  18. Phrossack

    Phrossack Armored Fish and Armored Men

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    Life and healthcare in America are good if you're well-off. If not, you're going to have a pretty rough time.

    Sounds like Canada is much better for most people but not as good if you're making quite a lot.
     
  19. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    @Truthy That's promising. I wonder if those who move countries to seek out a career in the U.S. are especially eager to be hard workers and put in more time and what not.

    The thing with my American Yahoo friend is that on paper his hours were probably 40 too. But there was just no clean separation of work and non-work. He was always checking his work email and was always on call.

    After I clock out of work for the day, I shut off all work emails and ignore work texts unless it's a genuine emergency. When I'm on vacation I do not check my work email. I also vacation for 3-5 weeks at a time, during which time I am completely unavailable. From what I understand many startups in silicon valley would not appreciate that sort of approach to work/life balance. But hey, I'm sure there's examples in both directions

    The thing is that my employer can't just fire me for no reason, like in most American states. So I can put my foot down and stick to my contractually obligated hours, and that's it.

    I could be wrong, but if you're rich here, you do have access to private healthcare in some regards. Instead of relying on the public system you can pay more and seek out private specialists. Looking up the numbers, it seems that 75% of Canadians have some form of supplementary private health insurance, on top of the public coverage we get. I assume most of that is healthcare coverage you get via work and so on, but it probably includes the rich paying for specialists or whatever. The rich are also free to find specialists for whatever ailment they have, in other countries, usually the U.S. From my understanding the U.S. has many world class specialist centres where the rich can go and get looked after.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  20. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    No, it really isn't.
    Here is one health outcome statistic that might make an impression on you:
    upload_2020-9-18_12-35-10.png
    And here is per capita health spending:


    There is no way to spin these numbers as a good thing. Just because your personal healthcare is good, does not mean healthcare is good in the US as a whole.

    And let me just note that the aggregate maternal mortality rate in the US disguises some shocking levels of inequality. As just one example:


    Note that maternal mortality is trending upward; not exactly consistent with the claim that the US has great healthcare.
     
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