Use of Great Scientist

[dannyharamati]

Hi, what is a better use/more profitable to great scientist, adding 6 "potions" or increasing city income by 50%? how can we measure it? Thanks

 

[AcaMetis]

All of them. Settling a great specialist, building an Academy, Bulbing a technology and starting a Golden Age can all be the best use of a Great Scientist in certain situations. And lategame there's rare circumstances where you'd use one to found a corporation, even.

Broadly speaking: Settling is best when you're expecting to run 0% slider for a while and can't use tech trading to generate more beakers faster (in which case bulbing becomes highly valuable). Academy is best if you've got a city with a rich output, and are expecting to run 100% slider a while (down the line this can be very powerful in combination with Bureau, since that gives your capital +50% ). Bulbing is best if you'll get a key monopoly/military tech out of it early (Philosophy/Liberalism are very popular bulbing targets), or if it gives you a tech that you're able to freely trade around for oodles of tech and money (I've seen one game turn a hopeless situation into a win by bulbing Compass on a Pangaea map and trading it around to get back into the game). A Golden Age is best if you're in position to use the turns of golden age you get to generate more great people, give your empire a boost to reach one or more key goals faster, and/or switch civics without suffering Anarchy.

 

[Gumbolt]

Bulbing better?

Academy not so much. Maybe bureau capital but takes while to pay off.
Academy long term but ultimately bulbing gives you instant 1500 +3xpop for edu and other techs.

If your planning cuirs to rush map unclear if settled or academy pay off.

 

[lymond]

The terminology we use is bit different here. We call beakers. I assume you mean creating an Academy for the +50% multiplier to beaker output. Just want to make sure we are clear there.

An Academy in your cap used to be the old recommend standby for the first Great Scientist (GS), which is often produced early in said capital. And it's still sometimes not a bad idea to do so, but really depends on a few things, especially timing and the commerce potential of the capital. Such as being able to really cottage it up for a nice Bureaucracy capital for some serious beaker output later. However, that approach often only really serves you well in long games like Space Victory.

As Gumbo mentioned above, if you are looking to pull off a cuir rush, you might be better off saving the first GS for a Philosophy bulb, so you can run Pacifism in a golden age to really pump out some more GSs for the Liberalism bulb path. You may need to use the second GS for a golden age, or you can try winning Music for the Great Artist and use that for the golden age.

Having the Philo trait may also give one more leeway on how they use those early GS, since one can produce them faster.

As for measuring it, Gumbo gave you and idea there with the GS bulbs being worth 1500+3xPop. So bulbing is highly valuable option for GSs -far more than other great folks. Take the Lib path I mentioned. If you are able to setup a nice golden age, you can produce a few quick GS that allows you to bulb thousands of beakers in a short time to get that quick military advantage and go stomping. If you are not military minded, you can still move your way to important later techs that will boost your overall empire for..say...and diplo or space victory.

As for measuring the Academy, it's a little trickier. The 50% is additive to any other beaker multipliers in the city. When you first create the Academy the cap will have a certain beaker output based on the current commerce produced, as well as how you run the slider (one generally cannot always run the slider at 100% research) - as well as if you are running scientist too (static beakers). Assuming that you will continue to grow on cottages, and those cottages will grow over time into towns, the commerce will obviously grow as well as the beaker output.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think that is the issue with academy. You spend so much time on 0% science if you go binary research. Plus you need building multipliers. @sampsa will tell you Oxford Uni is not a great investment either.

Maybe financial leaders for academy in strong bureau city? Hmmm

I barely go space route. War is so much more rewarding.

 

[lymond]

yep...ha..most of us are wamongers here. However, Ox is certainly worth it in a Space Game.

 

[Gumbolt]

yep...ha..most of us are wamongers here. However, Ox is certainly worth it in a Space Game.

There is a space victory?

 

[Qactus]

Best "space" victory is where you
- expand until there's no more space left and then
- take over the space occupied by your opponents by force

 

[Harv]

Interesting subject. I have an Earth game where I am planning to stay just under a Domination victory and grab Space instead. Actually it's a long pattern of building units to take out an AI, then getting distracted by new tech and new buildings and wonders and upcoming unit upgrades, followed by another cycle of building units to take out an AI. So space race with a single tile short of a domination victory. 8 turn travel time and all I had do do was send a settler to Easter Island.

Anyway, at Epic speed, this gives me some idea of what the turn counter will be in the event of a Space Race victory.

As for measuring it, Gumbo gave you and idea there with the GS bulbs being worth 1500+3xPop.

Does this formula vary with map size and game speed? The last time I used a couple of GS in my game, they each got about 7500 and decided it was impossible to recover these by settling or building an academy. So two things are driving this later in the game. One is the empire is getting bigger and population is bigger and according to that formula, the bulb is yielding more. The other is the number of turns remaining is getting shorter. Determining the number of turns remaining is also a question. Do we use the year 1900 as a target year for finishing the space race? 1800? The sooner we push our target date, the fewer turns remain.

The settled GS yields.... (6+3)(1+0.85+1) = 25.65. So the 7500 or so research is equal to about 300 turns as a settled great scientist.
My big city might be yielding 100 commerce at 50%, so the academy is also yielding about 25, or about 300 turns.
My turn count is about 400 and is nearly over.

So there might be a spot somewhere earlier in the game where building an academy or settling makes more sense.

 

[Gumbolt]

Map size does not affect it.

Speed does. So Epic is 2250 +4.5xpop. Likely rounded down.
So 10 pop is 2250+ (10x4.5) =2295.

2250+1039x4.5=6925.
So 7k is very possible as epic. Techs on epic generally vost more anyway.

You will notice too that techs cost 50% more too on epic. Hence why all the numbers for bulbs are 50% higher.

Quick and marathan will have similar tweaks no doubt.
6x.25= 19
9x3.25= 29.25 (Rep required.)
So 241 turns assuming you have all the multipliers. More without rep.

 

[6K Man]

Bulbing better on high levels (opens tech trading opportunities, and beelines for specific techs). You have to know what to bulb and when, so this is a more advanced approach.
On lower levels, Academy in your capital, then settle or Golden Age, perhaps with a situational bulb here or there.

In the later game (or if you are an aficionado of oversize maps and empires), Golden Age.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I like building my own early academy for cultural victories. I want to be first to music and sooner so I can settle the Great Artist sooner.

Otherwise you can get capture academies from enemy cities. You don't have to build your own. Or you can wait to capture a higher-quality city and then build an academy there.

When would settling the great scientist be useful?
1. One-city challenge (OCC), obviously. You would also want an academy.
2. One of those very nasty maps where I would just quit. But maybe Yours Truly enjoy self-abuse. No comment.

 

[ArchGhost]

Well, each use is viable, but the context changes up them up relative to one another.

In standard (REX, tech, attack) meta, bulbing is always the most powerful way to use a scientist for quite a while, at least until you exhaust the bulb options to where your only option is Physics. Especially so for the first one (which could be for Philo, or something more direct like Math or Engineering). With the speed and trade value you can get out of what you bulb you can leap ahead on the GS tech line very rapidly. Even if not going for cuirs, it can help you get up the Astronomy or SciMeth lines much quicker, which leads to faster international trade or a rapid approach to powerful techs like Communism. Having No Tech Trading or Always War on can damper this, or in any situation where you're not going be attacking soon or getting large -- cannons don't require GS help, for instance, and bulbing would help you less in a OCC or Space Race than a standard war game. Difficulty level directly affects this usage the most, with high difficulties making bulbing SOOOO much better because of the trade value which just...isn't there on lower difficulties.

Academy is a fine choice if you are PHI (so you can make up the scientist used easier),or are staying relatively small (so you can run Bureaucracy all game), or have a decent commerce capitol, and will be teching for a long time (so like, Space Race) regardless of any of those. Without the speed of acquisition of techs compared to bulbing, trade value is diminished even in a trading game, but you'll do better in a NTT game consequently as your direct beaker rate is better. Even in games where I've been behind by quite a bit (and thus little or no trade value) I STILL get more mileage out of bulbing certain expensive techs (like Astronomy, Chemistry, or SciMeth) very rapidly with a handful of scientists suddenly farmed in a Golden Age than out of an Academy though. There's no reason to not use a relatively "free" GS if you are a PHI leader to create one though, if you think the games is going to go to Space or Modern war and you have a decent capitol.

Starting a Golden Age seems kind of wasteful, but if you are properly set up, you can farm his replacement and several others with properly prepared cities (large pop, Caste +Pacifism). Golden Ages can also be critical to swapping civics with as little detriment as possible...after the major GS cut off (Lib, Astronomy, or Communism attained depending on the map) I freely use them as part of triggering a new Golden Age. Never the first choice, and especially not for the the first GS (you'd want to bulb Philo instead first!).

Settling a GS is the worst option in any type of game settings, but has the most beneficial effects in a OCC where every raw hammer and beaker counts. Especially if you get multiple GS and thus can Academy+Settle more

 

[Gwaja]

yep...ha..most of us are wamongers here. However, Ox is certainly worth it in a Space Game.

If you were an AI in this game, I'd have imagined "Lymond" the AI as high peaceweight with the likes of Frederick and Lincoln. ^_^

Settling a GS is the worst option in any type of game settings, but has the most beneficial effects in a OCC where every raw hammer and beaker counts. Especially if you get multiple GS and thus can Academy+Settle more

I can't remember the last time I settled a GS. Come to think of it, I don't think I have EVER... SETTLED a great scientist... EVER.

Settled great priests though... now I love those guys. ^_^

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The terminology we use is bit different here. We call beakers.

That icon sure looks like a flask, to me. Beakers were used in Civ 3. It's time to upgrade your terminology!
"The key difference between a beaker and an Erlenmeyer flask is that a beaker is a cylindrical container whereas a Erlenmeyer flask is a conical container."
https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-beaker-and-erlenmeyer-flask/

Spoiler :

I think that is the issue with academy. You spend so much time on 0% science if you go binary research. Plus you need building multipliers.

Using binary research does not invalidate the value of an Academy. I'm not seeing how binary research would have any real effect on the decision of getting an Academy or not. Let's talk about binary research to see why.

Binary research mattered a little bit more in Civ 4 Vanilla and Civ 4 Warlords since fractional Flasks (and fractional Gold) from each City was floored and lost. An example may help.
Let's say that we have 4 Cities, with them making these Commerce values: 5, 6, 7, and 8.
At a 50% Science Rate (assuming a 0% Culture Rate; there was no Espionage Rate in Vanilla and Warlords), we'd then have a 50% Gold Rate.
We'd make 2.5 Flasks and 3.5 Flasks in Cities 1 and 3, but those values would get floored to 2 and 3, respectively. The same for the Gold in those Cities being floored from 2.5 to 2 and from 3.5 to 3. Cities 2 and 4 would not have fractional losses since 50% divides evenly with non-zero decimal values into even numbers like 6 becoming 3 + 3 and 8 becoming 4 + 4.

At a 30% Science Rate, it gets worse:
City 1: 1.5 Flasks and 3.5 Gold -> 1 Flask and 3 Gold (a loss of 0.5 + 0.5 = 1)
City 2: 1.8 Flasks and 4.2 Gold -> 1 Flask and 4 Gold (a loss of 0.8 + 0.2 = 1)
City 3: 2.1 Flasks and 4.9 Gold -> 2 Flasks and 4 Gold (a loss of 0.1 + 0.9 = 1)
City 4: 2.4 Flasks and 5.6 Gold -> 2 Flasks and 5 Gold (a loss of 0.4 + 0.6 = 1)

After 10 turns, that's 10 * ( 1 + 1 + 2 + 2 ) + 10 * ( 3 + 4 + 4 + 5 ) = 10 * 6 + 10 * 13 = 60 + 130 = 190 output

Using binary research, we could have a 0% Science Rate for 7 turns and a 100% Science Rate for 3 turns
Each City would then earn the Commerce amount as pure Gold for 7 turns and as pure Flasks for 3 turns
After 10 turns, that's 7 * ( 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 ) + 3 * ( 5 + 6 + 7 + 8 ) = 7 * 26 + 3 * 26 = 182 + 78 = 260 output

WOW! 190 versus 260.

In Civ 4 Beyond the Sword, fractional Flasks (and fractional Gold) are summed across of all of your Cities before being floored.

Let's take the same 30% Science Rate for 10 turns in Civ 4 Beyond the Sword.

10 * floor( 1.5 + 1.8 + 2.1 + 2.4 ) + 10 * floor( 3.5 + 4.2 + 4.9 + 5.6 ) = 10 * floor( 7.8 ) + 10 * ( 18.2 ) = 10 * 7 + 10 * 18 = 70 + 180 = 250

250 versus 260 doesn't sound nearly as bad, but it still makes a case for us using binary research.


Yet, that's not the whole picture. There are a lot of factors involved.


Techs which have a white arrow going to them from another tech on the F6 Techs screen get a 20% boost on our Flasks for every white arrow that connects to the tech.

This bonus DOES NOT apply to the small picture of a tech pre-requisite.

The techs on the far left (Fishing, Agriculture, Hunting, The Wheel, Mysticism) and techs that don't have arrows going to them (Astronomy) miss out on this 20% boost. Meanwhile, techs that have 2 arrows going to them get a 40% boost on our Flasks IF we know each of the two techs optional pre-requisite techs that are connected by the white arrows.


Further, every turn, we get 1 base Flask "just because." I made an argument in favour of this Flask existing in the game in one of my first forum messages with the justification being that it would prevent us from seeing a goofy interface with an infinite amount of time to research a tech when we are in Anarchy and thus aren't (otherwise) earning any Flasks. For a tech that costs 260 Flasks where we have 10 Flasks invested in it, the game's interface will show 260 - 10 = 250 turns remaining to research the tech while in Anarchy, as we will still earn 1 Flask per turn, which would take us 250 turns to earn the remaining 250 Flasks. Without that free Flask, the game would probably have to show "infinite turns remaining" or some other weird way of representing the situation.

I got some negative feedback on this opinion and I almost left the forums because of that negative feedback; it was a good thing that I toughed it out and stuck around anyway, as I got to meet a great community of many wonderful people as a result.

Anyway, let's say that we only have 1 City and we are earning 9 Flasks per turn and we are researching a tech that has one white arrow pointing to it, giving us a 20% bonus to research. That free Flask means that we earn: floor[ ( 9 + 1 ) + ( 9 + 1 ) * 0.2 ]. More simply, we would normally write that as:
floor[ ( 9 + 1 ) * 1.2 ] = floor[ 10 * 1.2 ] = floor[ 12 ] = 12

Contrast that with us only earing 8 Flasks, where we would earn:
floor[ ( 8 + 1 ) * 1.2 ] = floor[ 9 * 1.2 ] = floor[ 10.8 ] = 10

Thus, you can see that careful consideration of that free Flask can become quite important in the early game, although the effect doesn't matter much beyond the early game, as its relative amount diminishes as our empire produces more and more Flasks per turn.


Now, one minor consideration regarding binary research is that on a turn where we are at a 0% Science Rate, we do not earn any bonus (20% for most techs due to the white arrow) on that 1 Flask. Thus, when we only have up to roughly 3 Cities, it can sometimes make sense to try to choose Science Rates other than binary research to combine that 1 Flask with a 20% boost from the white arrow as long as we can choose a Science Rate that does not lose us any Flasks or Gold due to a fractional total across of our empire, and as long as we are not in a desperate rush to complete a tech for some other reason (like unlocking a Worker tech or trying to be the first to complete research on a tech that gives a bonus for being the first to learn the tech, such as founding a Religion).

For example, let's say that when running a 50% Science Rate, we earn:
City A: 6.5 Flasks and 6.5 Gold
City B: 2 Flasks and 2 Gold
City C: 0.5 Flasks and 0.5 Gold
We would then not have any fractional losses and our base Flasks would be 6.5 + 2 + 0.5 = 9, plus the free 1 Flask, giving us a value of 10 Flasks, which, when multiplied by 20%, will not have any fractional losses on our bonus 20%, and we end up with 12 Flasks

For 2 turns, we would earn 2 * 12 = 24 Flasks and 2 * 9 = 18 Gold

If we instead stuck it out with binary research:
For 1 turn, we would earn floor( 1 * 1.2 ) = floor( 1.2 ) = 1 Flask and 18 Gold
For 1 turn, we would earn floor[ ( 18 + 1 ) * 1.2 ] = floor[ 19 * 1.2 ] = floor[ 22.8 ] = 22 Flasks
That would mean a total of 23 Flasks and 18 Gold

It's a minor effect, but in the early game, sometimes, like for a Succession Game of the Month where you are competing against other teams, that 1 extra Flask every 2 turns can matter.


Binary research is useful for other purposes, too. For example, when focusing Commerce on earning Gold, we don't get a bonus whether another AI has a stockpile of Gold. But, when focusing Commerce on earning Flasks, if another AI already knows the tech that we are researching, we may get additional Flasks from having a bonus to research for a tech that another player whom you have met already knows.

Let's say that we do not have a lot of Gold reserved and thus it will take us 15 turns to research a tech with or without binary research. If we "front-load" the turns of earning Gold at a 0% Science Rate, we'll increase the chance of AIs whom we have met learning a tech before we commit to using our turns of a 100% Science Rate, increasing the chance of earning a few extra bonus Flasks when one or more other AIs whom we have met learn a tech partway through those 15 turns.

Saving up Gold ahead of time has other good uses, too.

It can help us to avoid negative Events that can be averted by paying Gold or to get better outcomes from Events that have greater rewards for greater costs due to us having stockpiled our Gold for a bit, with the tradeoff being that we'll research our tech a bit later in exchange for the more positive outcome from the Event.

Having that Gold stockpile also gives us some freedom in tech trading. Let's say that we know Metal Casting and we do not mind trading it away. We are researching a cheaper tech, such as Mathematics. After a few turns, an AI learns Mathematics and is willing to trade it to us. If we only invested our 1 free Flask for 3 turns, we'll only miss out on 3 Flasks of invested research into Mathematics. But, if we had put in, say, 70 Flasks of research into Mathematics, and the AI has no other tech and no significant amount of Gold to trade to us, our 70 - 3 = 67 Flasks just poofed into thin air. Having used binary research with the 0% Science Rate at the start means that we have some Gold in our pocket to spend on researching a different tech.


Back to the Academy, which is representative of other multiplier Buildings.

One consideration is that the Academy's bonus will apply to the Flasks that we earn in the City which has the Academy (likely, our capital), and those Flasks can result in a fractional value, but that resulting fractional value will be added to the fractions from other Cities (in Beyond the Sword).

So, if our capital makes 15 Commerce, at a 100% Science Rate, we'll earn 15 * 1.5 = 22.5 Flasks from our capital. If the sum of the fractions from all of our other Cities is, say, around of 0.5 or 0.6, that fractional amount will add up to yet another complete base Flask, giving us either of 22 or 23 Flasks for some turns and 0 for other turns.

On some turns, we'll earn 0 Flasks from the capital and on some turns, we'll earn 15.5 Flasks from the capital, which has the potential to be 16 Flasks if other Cities' total fractions will sum together with that 0.5 Flask to create a full Flask.

Contrast that with, say, simply running at a 50% Science Rate, where we'll earn 7.5 * 1.5 = 11.25 Flasks that may be 11 Flasks or may be 12 Flasks, depending upon the total fractional amount in our other Cities.

Let's say that we use binary research with a 0% Science Rate for half of the turns and a 100% Science Rate for half of the turns.

Assuming that in both of the cases (0% for 1 turn and 100% for 1 turn versus 50% for 2 turns) our fractional Flasks are "useful," in that they sum together with other fractional values to produce a complete Flask, we will earn:
0 + 23 = 23 versus 12 + 12 = 24
And, in the case where the fractional Flasks are "not useful":
0 + 22 = 22 versus 11 + 11 = 22

Thus, the numbers are pretty close to the same, with only fractional values from other Cities possibly altering the balance in favour of one option or the other depending upon the math, but with the Academy still having nearly the same effect regardless of whether we are using binary research.


Binary research is a wonderful tool that all of us should use, particularly when using the Hall of Fame Mod with its convenient buttons for quickly going to a 0% Science Rate and 100% Science Rate (also available in the BUG Mod). But, binary research doesn't really impact the decision of whether to build an Academy.


In general, if I can get a Great Scientist as my first Great Person and I can get it relatively early in the game (500 BC or earlier), and assuming a relatively normal game where I'm not trying to get an all-time fastest finish in the Hall of Fame, I'll build an Academy as a good general heuristic to follow.

A lot of the game is spent on researching techs, and the 8 free Commerce from a Palace generally makes an Academy in the capital quite a viable option in most games.

Other forum members have discussed some important cases when you might consider using your first Great Scientist for a different purpose other than an Academy, and it is wise to keep these other cases in mind, so as to make an appropriate decision for each individual situation.

Yet, if you make it a goal to get a relatively early Great Scientist, you'll often be in a position where you can make that decision.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think the point was how many turns does it take to repay 1500-2000 beakers a bulb could of produced. I don't doubt the value of binary research. Early games if I crash my economy I can be at binary 0% science for many, many turns. I guess with multiple cottage then the value can kick in.

 

[Fippy]

But if you are getting a GS for an academy fast (by using a library with 2 scientists), you are already doing something good.
(compared to newer players who ignore for a long time)

Usually good in isolation games. Often on fractal.
Pangaea favors rushing and makes bulbing more powerful (much depends on how many trading partners are around).

 

[Gumbolt]

I wondered if they hold more value in always war games where you can't trade for techs and have no foreign trade routes.Here you may need that extra 5-6+ beakers a turn.

 

[pigswill]

One consideration not covered yet is difficulty level. In general the higher the difficulty the higher the value of bulbing because the value of a bulb is not merely the value of the tech but the additional beakers worth of research obtained through trading.