Useless Courthouses?

[WeaselSlapper]

Am I missing something or are court houses totally useless? With a maintenance of 5 GPT and only producing four why would I ever build a courthouse until I had colosseums in all cities? Assuming you only annex good production cities there should almost never be a need to build a courthouse or am I missing something?

 

[Brota]

There's a point in mid-late game where having colosseums + whatever other happy face building + every single lux resource just can not keep your empire happy. Every happy face counts I guess.

 

[Ahriman]

If you annex a city and don't build a courthouse, then you are getting double unhappiness from that city. So if you annex a size 10 city, building a courthouse will effectively provide +12 happiness (10 for pop, 2 for the city).

Much better than a colloseum.

A courthouse is a no-brainer in every annexed city.

 

[Lasitus]

Does the unhappiness ever go away for annexed cities? One would think after the generation dies off, happiness would approach normal.

 

[Ahriman]

Only with a courthouse. Courthouse eliminates the unhappiness, it does not decline naturally.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

If you annex a city and don't build a courthouse, then you are getting double unhappiness from that city. So if you annex a size 10 city, building a courthouse will effectively provide +12 happiness (10 for pop, 2 for the city).

Much better than a colloseum.

A courthouse is a no-brainer in every annexed city.

I didn't know that it doubled it. In the several cities I've annexed and actually watched my happiness at the time it always changed four. See I was missing something

 

[Abremms]

yeah, cities stay occupied untill you build a courthouse. i like the mechanic, its better than the out and out rebellion for however many turns in civ4. at least with the courthouse mechanic you can start to buy buildings and units in that city immediately .

 

[Tomice]

Now I understand why we can't sell buildings. The 5 gpt is a penalty for annexing cities. Otherwise you could build courthouses and sell them after 1 turn.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

Now I understand why we can't sell buildings. The 5 gpt is a penalty for annexing cities. Otherwise you could build courthouses and sell them after 1 turn.

But then the unhappiness would come right back I would assume. I really would like the ability to demolish a building that either I didn't need anymore or was just a dumb build by the AI.

 

[Ahriman]

Now I understand why we can't sell buildings. The 5 gpt is a penalty for annexing cities. Otherwise you could build courthouses and sell them after 1 turn.

I think this is a huge mistake.
It would be easy to avoid this fix:
a) Make the lack of unhappiness depend on the presence of the courthouse OR
b) Make the courthouse building "special" and unsellable (its already special in that its unbuyable).

Being unable to sell buildings is broken when you have puppet states that build useless junk and saddle you with that forever.

We have never had a version of Civ where buildings had upkeep costs but were unsellable.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

I think this is a huge mistake.
It would be easy to avoid this fix:
a) Make the lack of unhappiness depend on the presence of the courthouse OR
b) Make the courthouse building "special" and unsellable (its already special in that its unbuyable).

Being unable to sell buildings is broken when you have puppet states that build useless junk and saddle you with that forever.

We have never had a version of Civ where buildings had upkeep costs but were unsellable.

I disagree with that.

If you create a pupppet state, you get what you get.
You don't get the unhappiness, but you get the useless crap the puppet builds. Seems like it's a choice with consequences. If you could sell the useless crap, it would remove the biggest weakness from puppet states.

 

[cembandit]

yea but the military buildings got to go.

 

[Thalassicus]

I really would like the ability to demolish a building that either I didn't need anymore or was just a dumb build by the AI.

Such as all the harbors the AI builds... unless you're playing on an archipelago map, harbors are nearly useless.

 

[jakezephyr]

Courthouses are really useful when you annex a city because without one, the city has double unhappiness

 

[Louis XXIV]

Courthouses themselves are fine, but I feel they perhaps went a little too far in the penalty. I'd argue it should either be ridiculously expensive or cost the high upkeep, but not both. Just, imo. Right now, it seems a race with the annoying city AI to be able to annex it before they build more than 5 buildings.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I disagree with that.

If you create a pupppet state, you get what you get.
You don't get the unhappiness, but you get the useless crap the puppet builds. Seems like it's a choice with consequences. If you could sell the useless crap, it would remove the biggest weakness from puppet states.

Agreed.

Keep in mind that if you micro workers you can just spam out trading posts, increasing the gold from puppets while cutting into its ability to actually build anything substantial.

Early in the game, what puppets can construct can also be steered by what technologies you have. They *will* build markets fairly early if given few other options, so those early conquests work well if you plan for the puppet actions.

 

[Tomice]

I think this is a huge mistake.
It would be easy to avoid this fix:
a) Make the lack of unhappiness depend on the presence of the courthouse OR
b) Make the courthouse building "special" and unsellable (its already special in that its unbuyable).

Being unable to sell buildings is broken when you have puppet states that build useless junk and saddle you with that forever.

We have never had a version of Civ where buildings had upkeep costs but were unsellable.

I totally agree, I'd love to be able to sell buildings. I just wanted to say that there might be gameplay reasons why they left it out, instead of just forgetting it. And your suggestions are good, btw.


To TMIT and all who say "live with it, that's the penalty for conquest":

They took random events (e.g. volcanos) out, because they realized that random penalties are bad for gameplay. that's why ancient ruins are never hostile, unlike civ4. having to live with stupid buildings in puppet states is just another random, frustrating penalty!


Also, we might want to re-specialize a city at some point, selling our self-made buildings (e.g. when a military city is in the center of our empire after a campaign).

 

[oopsy poopsy]

I totally agree, I'd love to be able to sell buildings. I just wanted to say that there might be gameplay reasons why they left it out, instead of just forgetting it. And your suggestions are good, btw.


To TMIT and all who say "live with it, that's the penalty for conquest":

They took random events (e.g. volcanos) out, because they realized that random penalties are bad for gameplay. that's why ancient ruins are never hostile, unlike civ4. having to live with stupid buildings in puppet states is just another random, frustrating penalty!


Also, we might want to re-specialize a city at some point, selling our self-made buildings (e.g. when a military city is in the center of our empire after a campaign).

IMO demolishing buildings should be included if they cost maintenance (which they do), but my personal thought would be you have to create a happiness penalty for doing so (lasting or degrading over turns, but not forever and significantly less if you wait 'til after the courthouse is built). Your citizens would be upset if you demo'ed their university or harbour 'cause you didn't want to pay for it and strategically it's an interesting penalty 'cause you, presumably, are turning puppets to annexed as your happiness recovers and this would slow that process, so it's what your gold bank can afford versus what your smiley face bank can.

No matter what, if you have buildings costing maintenance, you need to give the player some recourse to eliminate that maintenance not just for stupid puppet AI, but in general. It's a degree of control the player should have (I can declare war, but I can't order my guys to blow up one useless building?), although not without consequences. JMO

 

[r_rolo1]

Agreed.

Keep in mind that if you micro workers you can just spam out trading posts, increasing the gold from puppets while cutting into its ability to actually build anything substantial.

Early in the game, what puppets can construct can also be steered by what technologies you have. They *will* build markets fairly early if given few other options, so those early conquests work well if you plan for the puppet actions.

Who are you and where did you putted Phil ? Do you want a ransom ?

That is the exact equivalent of saying "Yup, the AI governor is ******ed, but you can build cottages everywhere ... you gain coins and they will never build much stupid stuff because they can't get the prod" in Civ IV. No, is worse, because buildings now cost money

If building costs money , there needs to be a option to take them down, and this in general terms ... I thinked firaxis had learned that a decade ago when they putted civ III out

 

[KingMorgan]

I suspect Phil is under contract not to say anything bad

I advise cheating and controling the puppets build queue via the eco screen.