Using Great People to Research Techs

[Afforess]

I know that RoM and AND's large tech tree has made using great people to research techs pretty much useless. What could be done to make it useful again?

My Plan is to have great people subsidize the cost of technologies for a 20 turn window. Once a player chose the "Bulb" Icon on the great person, all technologies associated with that great person would be 50% cheaper. The cost reduction would fade 5% per turn. Players would not be able to use the effect more than once at a time.

An example:

Say you just earned a Great Engineer, and selected the bulb action. All production based technologies, like Engineering, Masonry, Construction, etc... would be 50% less science to research. Each turn the cost of researching them would rise by 5%, until they research full price again. 8 Turns in, you earn a Great Scientist. You can use the Scientist to bulb as well, reducing the research cost of all science related technologies. Then 16 turns in, you earn another Great Engineer. You can't bulb him, you need to wait 4 turns before he can be used.

New Idea:

Great People will still give you a free tech, but in addition to that, they will reduce tech costs in respect to your rank. If you are in 2nd place out of 8 players, the cost of ALL technologies drop by 2/8 (or 25%). If you're in first place, it has no effect. The effect is larger, the farther you are behind, acting as a rubber band mechanism for behind civilizations. The effect is short-lived, the same length of time as golden ages.

 

[NBAfan]

Sounds good to me.

 

[volus]

Well, it's slightly better than the old way, but I'm not sure it works the way you want. Oh, and your cost increases by _2.5%_ each turn...5% of 50%.

In my current game (from memory, as I'm not at home) I am in the early Renaissance, Epic speed, and techs are running me a little under 10 turns. So, for ease of math, let's say I generate 100 beakers/turn and a tech costs 1000 beakers.

Scenerio 1: No great person
At the end of 20 turns, I have researched 2 techs.

Scenerio 2: GP (old version)
At the end of 20 turns, I have researched 3 techs.

Scenerio 3: I pop a GP (new version) immediately after finishing a research.
Turn 1 - 100/500 beakers
Turn 2 - 200/525 beakers...
T3 - 300/550, T4 - 400/575, T5 - 500/600, T6 - 600/625, T7 - 650/650 + 50 overflow.
T8 - 150/675, T9 - 250/700...T14 - 700/825, T15 - 800/850, T16 - 875/875 + 25 overflow.
At the end of 20 turns, I've researched 2 techs + 325 beakers towards a 3rd.

Scenerio 4: GP (new version) optimal use - when a tech is at exactly midpoint
I'm going to be lazy and not type it out, but it should be 3 techs + 225 beakers.

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Okay, what about saving them for when you're catching up skipped techs, or you just have beakers out the wazoo...5 turn researches? Probably considerably more useful:
T1 - 200/500, T2 - 400/525, T3 - 550/550 + 50.
T4 - 250/575, T5 - 450/600, T6 - 625/625 + 25.
225/650, 425/675, 625/700, 725/725 + 100.
300/750, 500/775, 700/800, 825/825 + 75.
275/850, 475/875, 675/900, 875/925, 950/950 + 125
T19 - 325/975, T20 - 525/1000.

Conclusion: 5.5 techs complete instead of 4 techs. If you pop the GP right at the midpoint of a tech, you get more like 6.25 techs.

----

So, worst-case, it's about 1/3 tech better than the vanilla version at 10 turns/research, and 1/2 tech better at 5 turns/research. Best case, it's a little more than 1 tech better. Either way, you're committed to researching a single type of tech for 20 turns.

Compared to a scientist giving me 50+ (scaling) beakers per turn for the next thousand turns, or an engineer letting me drop a freebie wonder anywhere I want, there's just no question. Maybe a second prophet, or an artist if I didn't have any borders to push. But even then, it seems like a Golden Age would be more useful.

 

[Afforess]

Well, it's slightly better than the old way, but I'm not sure it works the way you want. Oh, and your cost increases by _2.5%_ each turn...5% of 50%.

In my current game (from memory, as I'm not at home) I am in the early Renaissance, Epic speed, and techs are running me a little under 10 turns. So, for ease of math, let's say I generate 100 beakers/turn and a tech costs 1000 beakers.

Scenerio 1: No great person
At the end of 20 turns, I have researched 2 techs.

Scenerio 2: GP (old version)
At the end of 20 turns, I have researched 3 techs.

Scenerio 3: I pop a GP (new version) immediately after finishing a research.
Turn 1 - 100/500 beakers
Turn 2 - 200/525 beakers...
T3 - 300/550, T4 - 400/575, T5 - 500/600, T6 - 600/625, T7 - 650/650 + 50 overflow.
T8 - 150/675, T9 - 250/700...T14 - 700/825, T15 - 800/850, T16 - 875/875 + 25 overflow.
At the end of 20 turns, I've researched 2 techs + 325 beakers towards a 3rd.

Scenerio 4: GP (new version) optimal use - when a tech is at exactly midpoint
I'm going to be lazy and not type it out, but it should be 3 techs + 225 beakers.

----

Okay, what about saving them for when you're catching up skipped techs, or you just have beakers out the wazoo...5 turn researches? Probably considerably more useful:
T1 - 200/500, T2 - 400/525, T3 - 550/550 + 50.
T4 - 250/575, T5 - 450/600, T6 - 625/625 + 25.
225/650, 425/675, 625/700, 725/725 + 100.
300/750, 500/775, 700/800, 825/825 + 75.
275/850, 475/875, 675/900, 875/925, 950/950 + 125
T19 - 325/975, T20 - 525/1000.

Conclusion: 5.5 techs complete instead of 4 techs. If you pop the GP right at the midpoint of a tech, you get more like 6.25 techs.

----

So, worst-case, it's about 1/3 tech better than the vanilla version at 10 turns/research, and 1/2 tech better at 5 turns/research. Best case, it's a little more than 1 tech better. Either way, you're committed to researching a single type of tech for 20 turns.

Compared to a scientist giving me 50+ (scaling) beakers per turn for the next thousand turns, or an engineer letting me drop a freebie wonder anywhere I want, there's just no question. Maybe a second prophet, or an artist if I didn't have any borders to push. But even then, it seems like a Golden Age would be more useful.

Thanks for the analysis, I was hoping I could get some concrete numbers. I've got another idea, re-read the OP, and see what you think.

 

[Iceciro]

Jumping to a "Where's the fun gone?" side of things...

Why/how is it "fun" to introduce all of these mechanics making the game harder for the leading civ? Shouldn't the difficulty option take care of that at player discretion (assuming the player is the leading civ, which seems to be the concern) and don't we already have something similar by default in Tech Diffusion?

 

[dudeSDCA]

Hmmm. I use the GP regularly for techs; usually the GP doesn't give me a full tech (due to speed or difficulty?), but it's a nice bump.

So if they are still giving the immediate tech bonus AND providing the % increase, I love it. Of course, this fits my play style since I like to play until the end-game Others, however, may cry that even snail-paced is too fast (and hate anything that speeds up tech granting)

 

[volus]

Thanks for the analysis, I was hoping I could get some concrete numbers. I've got another idea, re-read the OP, and see what you think.

Still not a fan. I don't think my experience is uncommon to say I'm in first most of the time, so it's exactly like vanilla. If the problem is the AI falling too far behind (and it often is) then fiddle with the tech diffusion code, not with the GP.

 

[Afforess]

Okay; what would you suggest then? Multiple Technologies?

 

[dudeSDCA]

I do think the tech diffusion is too weak...but that's another topic

 

[szemek77]

Afforess, why do you want to penalize leaders? Are you a socialist?

In the case you are the top Civ, the cost of techs would drop by 1/8 for 16 turns.
That gives you almost nothing. You will be probably able to get i.e. 2 techs in 16 turns, instead of 18. Not to mention that this is the case of 8 CIVS. What if you have 25? Would you even notice your bonus?

Taking opposite point of view, 25th Civ in the ranking, would get - what? - 25/25 cost release? OK. Let's take 24/25. Do you know, what does it mean? 16 turns of getting TECH every turn, most possibly....

Why not to make it simple: GP bulbs 2 techs. If you insist on supporting the weakest civs, you can make it like this: 2 techs for upper half of the scoring table, 3 techs for bottom parts.

 

[AngelusDD]

I do think the tech diffusion is too weak...but that's another topic

i agree....tech diffusion should be comparatively strong.

in my imagination the tech diffusion should ensure that smaller civs dont fall behind in techs that much.
but even with this turned on, i always find civs who havent reached classic era when the top civs are at industrial age or later.


the bigger the difference, the simpler the challenge to the higher civs.
perhaps leaving GPs as they are and rather take the approach on the tech diffusion.
an exponential increase in diffusion the wider the gap is, and an increase in diffusion in the modern era and beyond when worldwide communication makes tech diffusion simpler...

 

[vincentz]

Never uses a GP for tech, so any initiative to change the existing system is welcomed by me.

Could it possible be made like a combination of the Great Merchant and a Spy, getting techs but as a peacefull action (Can only do with civs that has embassies or something like that).

So f.ex. take the game I'm playing right now. I'm Rome and hopeless behind my neighbourgh the Greeks, but we are VERY good friends. So I get a Engineer, walk to one of his cities, and they kindly teach my engineer (that is consumed in the process) a certain amount of beaks releated to oldstyle engineers techs, scaled with world size, speed and most importantly how far I'm behind.

 

[Iceciro]

IMHO:

1) Make tech diffusion stronger, and back loaded - the farther away a civ is, the further it catches up! As civs get within the right era of the leader, they have to do their own work.

2) Great People ALWAYS fully research an entire tech relevant to them.

 

[Killtech]

Could it possible be made like a combination of the Great Merchant and a Spy, getting techs but as a peacefull action (Can only do with civs that has embassies or something like that).

So f.ex. take the game I'm playing right now. I'm Rome and hopeless behind my neighbourgh the Greeks, but we are VERY good friends. So I get a Engineer, walk to one of his cities, and they kindly teach my engineer (that is consumed in the process) a certain amount of beaks releated to oldstyle engineers techs, scaled with world size, speed and most importantly how far I'm behind.

first thought that came into my mind reading this:
settle great engineer in foreign civs cities gives a huge tech diffusion bonus, but your friend gets the engineer permanently. tech diffusion: 25% const reduction to all techs he has and you don't, 50% tech reduction for all his engineering tech.

btw. great merchant (and also caravan) trade mission: should these also give the player who received the trade mission a small gold bonus too? or a temporary +x for y turns in the city that received the trade mission (cannot place another trade mission as long as the bonus hasn't decayed).