Using Religions - Please Advise

[Eggolas]

I'm trying something very different for me, founding religions and building wonders for GP while maintaining an offensive military.

I'm not really sure how best to develop the situation though as it's so different from anything I've ever tried.

Thus far, I've founded Taoism, Confuciansim, Christianity and Islam and built shrines for the first three. I'm playing Monarch level on Marathon speed.

I would really appreciate some sage advice. Thanks.

 

[vampy420]

Im far from a sage, but one thing I can reccomend is specialize diferent cities to build different types of great people, and build wonders accordingly - some would disagree, but I find this allows me to choose the next type of great person generated, by adjusting specialists in cities to change the GPP rates in each. I havnt really tried it, but from what I hear philosophical leader + caste system greatly increases GP production, I think once I'm done with this princ level game I'll drop back to noble and try it out.

With 4 religions founded and you appear to have enough area of control to do it - all you really need for culture win is a GProphet farm and a GArtist farm - and a strong enough military to deter agressors.

 

[Sisiutil]

I have tried Vampy's suggestion and it does work well with Philosophical civs. Combine the assigned specialists in each city with the Wonders you choose to build there, and you can get the types of GP you want being generated every few turns, even in the late game.

For example, build only Great Engineer-generating Wonders (Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Hagia Sophia) in a city where you build a forge, factory, and Ironworks, and assign only Engineering specialists. Build the Great Library in another city and only run Scientist specialists. Build Stonehenge and the Oracle in a third and only run Priests. Build the Colossus, Versailles, and the Great Lighthouse for Merchants, the Sistine Chapel, Notre Dame, Globe Theatre and Hermitage for Great Artists. And so on.

A GE-only city is invaluable to this strategy, since none of the Philosophical civs are also Industrious, and you'll need their help to get those other wonders built.

 

[NuWorld]

I'm trying something very different for me, founding religions and building wonders for GP while maintaining an offensive military.

I'm not really sure how best to develop the situation though as it's so different from anything I've ever tried.

Thus far, I've founded Taoism, Confuciansim, Christianity and Islam and built shrines for the first three. I'm playing Monarch level on Marathon speed.

I would really appreciate some sage advice. Thanks.

Basically, what Sisiutil said except that you won't get them quick in late game on marathon. Having to get 5000 GP points is not quick. In my current game I have similar situation, 4 religions + shrines in different cities, each dedicated to a different GP type. In the early game you want prophets & scientists, after that it's pretty much all about engineers. Mid game, after I got liberalism, I was running pacifism for quite a while to get those GP as quickly as possible. But, after I got 15 or so GP's out, it becomes less important because you'll need 50-60 turns to get next GP, game is coming to an end quickly. It will be hard, even on monarch, to build 4 such cities, unless you stay isolated till cca 1000AD or even later. Eventually, you'll have to spoil GP production with some national wonders.

It's 18civ/pangea/emperor/marathon game, I got Incas as random civ. I built only one city, 2 other capitols were captured pretty early (3000BC). Since they were quite apart, I needed good production in all of them to be able to defend themselves on their own, so no real city specialising took part. I captured Paris soon (2500 BC) and those 4 made the core of empire. This is roughly what they looked like:

Cuzco - starting capitol - seafood/mines - basically production city - has Oracle, Chichen Itza, Ankgor Wat, Taj Mahal, Kremlin + Heroic Epic & Pentagon + shrine - 3 early GP came from here, later 1 GE

Madrid - flood plains/mines - science city with heavy production - has Parthenon, Great Library + Oxford & Hermitage + shrine - 3 early GS came from here, later 1 GA

Tenochtitlan - river grassland/mines - GP farm with heavy production - has Hanging Gardens, Hagia Sophia, Pentagon, 3 Gorges Dam, Space Elevator + Ironworks & National Epic + shrine - 6 GE + 1 GP from here

Paris - coastal money factory, decent production - has Great Lighthouse, Colossus, Versailles, Eiffel Tower + Wall Street & Globe Theatre + shrine - 2 GM from here

This is what it looks like at about 1750AD. GP's were used for shrines, GS's for academies, GE's for wonders, 1 GM was cashed, other was used with GA to trigger golden age when I got Industrialization to hurry global factory production. I was very happy because I got what I needed, except that, GA, 16 out of 17, pretty good ratio. IMHO, on marathon speed, Great People get less important as time goes by, had some comfortable wins with only 4-5 GP spawned throughout the game. Hope this helps.

 

[Eggolas]

I'm not clear on one point. Wouldn't someone use the Great Artists to repeatedly culture bomb a city to raise it to the 50k level? Or doesn't it work that way?

 

[cabert]

I'm not clear on one point. Wouldn't someone use the Great Artists to repeatedly culture bomb a city to raise it to the 50k level? Or doesn't it work that way?

when going for cultural, the goal is to have 3 cities at 50K level.
You win when the 3rd gets to it.
So it's wise to have some GAs in your pocket to push beyond the final line ASAP.
let's say your capitol is most culturally advanced, and don't need to be pushed, but your 2 others are around 40k. If one is 42k, and the other 39k, you can win with 5 GA.
If you only have 4, you'll have to wait until either the second comes to 46k or the 3rd comes to 42k, or you can spend a lot of power in your GP Farm with artists, trying to pop a new GA.

 

[vampy420]

when going for cultural, the goal is to have 3 cities at 50K level.
You win when the 3rd gets to it.
So it's wise to have some GAs in your pocket to push beyond the final line ASAP.
let's say your capitol is most culturally advanced, and don't need to be pushed, but your 2 others are around 40k. If one is 42k, and the other 39k, you can win with 5 GA.
If you only have 4, you'll have to wait until either the second comes to 46k or the 3rd comes to 42k, or you can spend a lot of power in your GP Farm with artists, trying to pop a new GA.

I usually drop hermitage in the lowest of the three when I'm trying for cultural - the extra 100% there helps it catch up to the others.

 

[cabert]

I usually drop hermitage in the lowest of the three when I'm trying for cultural - the extra 100% there helps it catch up to the others.

true enough, but you don't do this in the last turn.
You build the ermitage asap to get the 100% for as long as possible.
same for cathedrals. The sooner, the better.

 

[Eggolas]

when going for cultural, the goal is to have 3 cities at 50K level.
You win when the 3rd gets to it.
So it's wise to have some GAs in your pocket to push beyond the final line ASAP.
let's say your capitol is most culturally advanced, and don't need to be pushed, but your 2 others are around 40k. If one is 42k, and the other 39k, you can win with 5 GA.
If you only have 4, you'll have to wait until either the second comes to 46k or the 3rd comes to 42k, or you can spend a lot of power in your GP Farm with artists, trying to pop a new GA.

On Monarch/Marathon, the GAs produce +12,000 points of culture. At 1045 AD, I have two (the second came from Music) in reserve, plus a GA wonder farm. Beijing has 13k culture, another has 8k. The last one has 1.5k, but that can change later.

OK, even though I'm industrious/financial, I think I'll try for a cultural victory for the fun of it.

 

[jayron32]

I'm not clear on one point. Wouldn't someone use the Great Artists to repeatedly culture bomb a city to raise it to the 50k level? Or doesn't it work that way?

Your 3 best culture cities SHOULD be running most cultural multiplier buildings (the "Cathedral" level buildings, hermitage, the RnR, Bway, Hwood) and free speech. You can get 250% or so in each of these cities. That means that a settled Great Artists should net you 2.5x14 = 35 culture/turn for each. That means that 115 turns = 1 culture bomb, so if you HAVE longer than 115 turns left in the game (about 1900 or so is a good break point) it is better to settle the artists. After 1900 it is better to culture bomb. Either way, "saving" the great artist is a TOTAL waste. Plan ahead. If you can get more than 115 turns out of him, settle him in your 3rd culture city ASAP. If you can't, culture-bomb the 3rd culture city ASAP.

 

[Araqiel]

Your 3 best culture cities SHOULD be running most cultural multiplier buildings (the "Cathedral" level buildings, hermitage, the RnR, Bway, Hwood) and free speech. You can get 250% or so in each of these cities. That means that a settled Great Artists should net you 2.5x14 = 35 culture/turn for each. That means that 115 turns = 1 culture bomb, so if you HAVE longer than 115 turns left in the game (about 1900 or so is a good break point) it is better to settle the artists. After 1900 it is better to culture bomb. Either way, "saving" the great artist is a TOTAL waste. Plan ahead. If you can get more than 115 turns out of him, settle him in your 3rd culture city ASAP. If you can't, culture-bomb the 3rd culture city ASAP.

If you're aiming for a cultural victory you shouldn't be waiting around till the end of the game when spaceships are going to be launched. Your cultural pile up using the slider should begin early enough that you won't have 115 turns to go when its 1900. You should be nearly done at that point.

 

[davelisowski]

I decided to go for a cultural victory in 1625. Grant it, my three top cities were all above the 20,000 mark. On marathon, it's 150,000 for a legendary city. It seems like a lot, but is doable provided the structure is there.
Early GAs should be used as specialists if you are going to try for cultural. The culture bombs are a one time shot so unless you are cranking GAs out every couple dozen turns, I'd use them as super specialists. With the Sistine Chapel, they get an extra 2 . Rock and Roll, Broadway, and Hollywood seem like a lot of production. If you are that far in the game, go for the Eifel Tower, or broadcast towers. Then the "cathedral" level buildings (should be able to get at least 3 in each city as long as your other cities are building the necessary temples). And I agree with Araqiel, in that you need to use the culture slider to boost your /turn. The trouble is deciding where you want your research tree to stop, and if you can afford that.

::edit:: yes, Sistine Chapel. Thanks, Araqiel.

 

[Araqiel]

With the Parthenon, they get an extra 2

You mean Sistine Chapel right? Parthenon is +50% GP points.

 

[pigswill]

If you've got multiple shrines then you need lots of converted cities which means missionaries and open borders or massive expansion. That should sort out your cash flow. I'm not sure how building wonders fits in with military offensive because of production rivalry. You could perhaps combine culture victory with expansion and wonder building by focussing on wonders in your three legendary cities;and you could certainly combine that with specialist GPs. One engineer city, one artist city and one everything else city; use military to grab cities, use missionaries to quickly convert newly taken cities giving culture borders and money quickly. If you're expanding then that will give you plenty of cities to produce military while your legendary cities focus on wonders and religion.

 

[cabert]

On Monarch/Marathon, the GAs produce +12,000 points of culture. At 1045 AD, I have two (the second came from Music) in reserve, plus a GA wonder farm. Beijing has 13k culture, another has 8k. The last one has 1.5k, but that can change later.

OK, even though I'm industrious/financial, I think I'll try for a cultural victory for the fun of it.

beware, on marathon the deadline is 150K (not the 50k i mentionned which are for standard speed)

and i don't agree with jayron on the "culture bomb asap" thing.
If you plan to bomb anyway (let's say you're less than 100 turns from victory), you can just as well keep the GA in stock until you can finish in one turn.
why? because:
* Sometimes, you just go wrong on which city to bomb, and you cannot get your GA back. Let's say you forgot about a village not yet a town = with multipliers, it makes things very different. Or imagine you have to wage a war, and need some cash = some turns with 100% gold => buildings count more. There is still a lot that can happen after you decide to push the slider.
* surprise. If your cities are going to touch the deadline very soon, it's visible in the victory conditions screen. If there are 2 with more than 4000 (12k on marathon) to get, it's not that obvious that you're going to win.
I'm not sure the AI watches those very closely, but in a multiplayer, it's a sure case of everybody attacking you.
You can get as much as 4/5 GA to bomb in the last turn, if you play the "extensive" GPP card (meaning you put a lot of artist specialists in a lot of cities very soon, with caste system and pacifism).

 

[cabert]

If you've got multiple shrines then you need lots of converted cities which means missionaries and open borders or massive expansion. That should sort out your cash flow. I'm not sure how building wonders fits in with military offensive because of production rivalry. You could perhaps combine culture victory with expansion and wonder building by focussing on wonders in your three legendary cities;and you could certainly combine that with specialist GPs. One engineer city, one artist city and one everything else city; use military to grab cities, use missionaries to quickly convert newly taken cities giving culture borders and money quickly. If you're expanding then that will give you plenty of cities to produce military while your legendary cities focus on wonders and religion.

it's best to close borders when you stop research.
If you don't, you'll get backstabbed when the AIs have a good tech lead.

 

[NuWorld]

The trouble is deciding where you want your research tree to stop, and if you can afford that.

Main problem: would you be able to hold off any attacks in next 100 turns or so? If I'm first to get Liberalism, I'll pick up Rifling or Military Tradition for solid defense and then jack the culture slider to max. Sometimes I had to go for Infantry, but it really depends on a diplomacy in particular game. Lots of 'borders spark tensions' modifiers will appear, city flipping...narrows down to who your neighbours are. I guess Monty will not just sit and wait for you to choke him with culture

 

[davelisowski]

Main problem: would you be able to hold off any attacks in next 100 turns or so? If I'm first to get Liberalism, I'll pick up Rifling or Military Tradition for solid defense and then jack the culture slider to max. Sometimes I had to go for Infantry, but it really depends on a diplomacy in particular game. Lots of 'borders spark tensions' modifiers will appear, city flipping...narrows down to who your neighbours are. I guess Monty will not just sit and wait for you to choke him with culture

Indeed. That's why you should mass produce cavalry/infantry and take him out.

For cultural victory it's either: befriend your neighbors at all costs and all ends in order to make the "border tension" modifier negligable, or eliminate your neighbors so that the "border tension" modifier doesn't exist. If the soon-to-be legendary cities are in the middle of your empire, then there shouldn't be too much cause for concern.

 

[pigswill]

My previous post was a bit unclear coz I was making it up as I went along. I'd say continuous expansion means lots of wars means lots of closed borders anyway. Whilst this stops you having trade routes with AI it also stops them having trade routes with you. You can recoup your losses via shrines for gold and running research slightly higher so it may give you a comparative advantage. Another advantage of a big empire with legendary cities in centre is that space =time when it comes to resisting invasion.

 

[Eggolas]

Well, unless the AI has decided to go for a diplomatic victory by building the UN, I don't understand it's detour through Mass Media allowing me to go straight space race with my superior production (2:1 advantage). FDR had a significant tech lead and although he had a 100+ GNP advantage, I closed that to parity and ran at 90% science, while upgrading my military to mech infantry.

It's 1718AD and I suspect that the race will be over in the mid to late 1700s. The Space Elevator will be finished in 12 turns (no Engineer) and then the rest of the equipment will fall. Right now FDR has 2 Casings and I've finished 5.

[Edit -- Yep, he built the U.N. I was giving away techs and resources to Germany and Rome for the past 40 turns or so and Germany finally turned friendly. When the first U.N. vote came up, I tested the waters with the nuclear non-proliferation resolution. Of course, everyone voted for it. Then in 1732 A.D. I went for the win and sure enough, both Germany and Rome voted for the Crimson Chin! By my mother's mandible, I say "Enough! No more turns!]

Tight space race, but I believe I had the production advantages to win it. The final military score was just about even as I built mech infantry everywhere that wasn't producing space parts. Fun game. Never had GNP at 1200 before.