US's Nuclear Bombings of Japan.

daft

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In August 1945, during WWII and after the capitulation of the Nazi Germany, the USA dropped Nuclear Bombs on (enemy)Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As the result of these bombings over one hundred thousand Japanese Civilians died.
Is this the proof about American ruthlessness in wartime, similar, t6 a much lesser extent, to the Indian Wars of the past?
Was this a totally understandable and excusable action on behalf of the American military? What circumstances led to the bombings, were they unavoidable in order to end the war for good and as fast as possible and avoid additional American casualties in the war?
Since no one seems to have made this topic into a thread before I wonder if anyone is still willing to wage their opinion on this subject.
 
I think it is clear that it limited additional American casualties. The question of whether that justifies the action remains.
 
No, it absolutely does not.
Think about it, the US is until this very day, the only nation in the world to have used Nuclear Weapons! Others had/have it (like Russia/USSR) but have never used them in a wartime.
This proves to me one thing, just like with the big brother theory, it's the US's way or else...
 
In short, you weren't really asking a question here.
 
IMO using the bomb was totally justfied from any point of view. It would have been silly and crazy not to use it. OTOH it is the way they used it that looks unnecesarily cruel. Why bombing two cities in such short time interval, not leaving time to Japan to surrender after the first one? I think it is obvious they were eager to test the plutonium bomb.
 
IMO using the bomb was totally justfied from any point of view. It would have been silly and crazy not to use it. OTOH it is the way they used it that looks unnecesarily cruel. Why bombing two cities in such short time interval, not leaving time to Japan to surrender after the first one? I think it is obvious they were eager to test the plutonium bomb.

But they already tested the Pu design with Trinity. Seems more like proving to the Japanese and the rest of the world they had more than one bomb.
 
Do you kill a hundred thousand to save several million? That's what the bombs did.
 
Dropping the nukes was justified.

The purple hearts they manufactured for the invasion of the Japanese home islands are still being handed out today 70 years later because they haven't run out yet.
 
I think part of the question is whether unconditional surrender was justified. If it was, then the atomic bombs were justified. The amount of casualties (just counting allied casualties) would have been far, far greater. And I don't think it was unreasonable, given what they experienced at Okinawa, to think Japanese resistance would have resulted in even greater loss of Japanese lives than that caused by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Whether that's true is a different question, but not one they would be expected to know the answer to behind the fog of war.

I think the ease at which it is carried out (the use of a single bomb) sets Hiroshima and Nagasaki apart, but the destructive force or casualties were not dramatically different from fire bombing Tokyo. But mass bombing of cities was standard operating procedure for the war, so I'm not sure why these two should be singled out.
 
I think part of the question is whether unconditional surrender was justified. If it was, then the atomic bombs were justified. The amount of casualties (just counting allied casualties) would have been far, far greater. And I don't think it was unreasonable, given what they experienced at Okinawa, to think Japanese resistance would have resulted in even greater loss of Japanese lives than that caused by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Whether that's true is a different question, but not one they would be expected to know the answer to behind the fog of war.

I think the ease at which it is carried out (the use of a single bomb) sets Hiroshima and Nagasaki apart, but the destructive force or casualties were not dramatically different from fire bombing Tokyo. But mass bombing of cities was standard operating procedure for the war, so I'm not sure why these two should be singled out.

They probably shouldn't be singled out, because what you said about mass bombing of cities being just as destructive and also a standard practice of the times is certainly accurate. They are singled out because the propagandizing since the war ended, led by the Americans themselves, has made the term 'weapon of mass destruction' part of the vernacular, as if a device that kills a whole bunch of people has some qualitative difference from a lot of devices that kill the same whole bunch of people. As usual, hypocrisy comes with a cost.
 
Yes, it was a ruthless action. And being ruthless was the most merciful course of action.

Ending the war in a single decisive strike (which is usually going to be horrific) is better for the vast majority of people on every side than a protracted slow bleeding death. Yes, it means being willing to sacrifice many lives, but that's a willingness that, in some circumstances, has a place in warfare. (It's not really a valid excuse in a war you started, though).
 
Seeing as there was no 'single decisive strike', that undermines the rest of the argument. The ruthlesness was already given due to the unconditional surrender demand, another historical novelty - if one wants to call it that.

I think part of the question is whether unconditional surrender was justified. If it was, then the atomic bombs were justified. The amount of casualties (just counting allied casualties) would have been far, far greater. And I don't think it was unreasonable, given what they experienced at Okinawa, to think Japanese resistance would have resulted in even greater loss of Japanese lives than that caused by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Whether that's true is a different question, but not one they would be expected to know the answer to behind the fog of war.

I think the ease at which it is carried out (the use of a single bomb) sets Hiroshima and Nagasaki apart, but the destructive force or casualties were not dramatically different from fire bombing Tokyo. But mass bombing of cities was standard operating procedure for the war, so I'm not sure why these two should be singled out.

Indeed. Perhaps for the utter poinltessness of bombimg civilian targets? Because, 'regular' bombing apart, even after the second part the only immediate result was an impasse in the Japanese government, with the military still wanting to carry on and the civilians opposing. Had not the emperor, when asked, taken a position against further fighting (a position which was even then opposed with attempted sabotage by military fanatics), even the use of nuclear bombs would have been utterly pointless.

The same pointlessness that was later repeated on an even grander scala in Vietnam, making it the most heavily bombed country in the entire history of Earth. 'Luckily', no nuclear weapons were used; but then, it was never an official war, was it.
 
The unconditional surrender requirement was due to the Western Allies' experience with the conclusion of WW1, with regards to Germany. Because the Western Allies never marched into Germany after defeating the Kaiser's armies, the German people never really felt they were defeated. Thus the Nazis, military officers, militarists, nationalists and whatnot were able to play on a 'stabbed in the back' public mood.

Hence the Americans didn't really want to come back and do this a third time, so they wanted to really rub the issue in and totally dismantle the apparatus of Imperial Japan, so that they won't start a WW3 for revenge or something. One of the very very rare times when Western democracies took the long view and wrapped it up 'correctly' rather than going for short-term convenient results IMO.
 
Yes, it was a ruthless action. And being ruthless was the most merciful course of action.

Ending the war in a single decisive strike (which is usually going to be horrific) is better for the vast majority of people on every side than a protracted slow bleeding death. Yes, it means being willing to sacrifice many lives, but that's a willingness that, in some circumstances, has a place in warfare. (It's not really a valid excuse in a war you started, though).
In the end, it saved the lives of probably millions if not tens of millions of Alliance and Japanese lives.

The Japanese had massed half a million troops on Kyushu (they brought back some troops from China to reinforce this), which was to be the initial landing zone for the Western Allies. Given how the fighting had been so far in the island-hopping campaign, the results were going to be pretty ugly. If anything, there were more troops on Honshu. Plus the Japanese had scrapped together a few thousand planes (I think 2k?) for kamikaze attacks, though I think the Western Allies weren't aware of this at this time I believe.

The early surrender ensured that Japan got off relatively lightly fr its aggressive, expansionist project, compared with the devastation of Nazi Germany (esp in the east).
 
Think about it, the US is until this very day, the only nation in the world to have used Nuclear Weapons! Others had/have it (like Russia/USSR) but have never used them in a wartime.
This proves to me one thing, just like with the big brother theory, it's the US's way or else...

That fact isn't very damning or meaningful, considering the unique and extreme circumstances in which those bombs were developed and used.

Thankfully, WW3 never materialized, so that might have something to do with why nuclear weapons haven't been used by other powers since WW2.

I take it that you believe it's some sort of moral indictment against the US that post-war nuclear armed powers never pushed the button?
 
It all revolves back to whether it was a "single strike", and to what extent the demand for Japanese "unconditional" surrender was justified. Both come with more than a whiff of "what-if" to make sense — a number of pretty big assumptions are required, and that's regardless of bombs or no bombs, and terms or no terms.

Since the bombs didn't appear as single strikes out out the blue, but were preceeded by a year or so of very considerable US bombings of Japanese populations centres, the sad fact was also that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had at least partly been relatively spared so as to have someplace to nuke. US conventional bombing could have flattened them just as well. AND the Japanese were on their last legs already, and knew it. So what remains is the possible argument that the nukes were a sign the US could still amp things up considerably, and that — specifically — settled the matter. The problem is still that it's by necessity an unknown if the same outcome might not have materialised even if the US hadn't had the Bomb? It's just not possible to know for certain.

Put another way, the problem also is IF the US has accepted some minor negotiated modification to terms for Japan, that would allow the Japanese imperial family to stay on the throne — possibly nerfed to be mere constitional figureheads on US insistance — would that have been so terrible, if it ended the war before an invasion? The answer, like quite often is, is probably that it all depends on what the US would have done NEXT, to "win the peace" in Japan. Considering the US in the end had not just the imperial family remain, but the actual emperor (whom I think they could well have demanded should step down in favour of someone less implicated), at least nothing indicates allowing Japan to name perhaps a single condition for its surrender is unlikely to have cause any lasting bad effects. No nukes, and the US being reasonable like that in the post-war era in Japan might as well have been seen as a case of US non-vindictive fair-mindedness, and an asset — rather than some kind of weakness for a militarist Japan to stage a resurgence from (if that's the worry).

I.e. there are a bunch of factors that might still have decided it all in such a fashion that the Japanese main islands wouldn't have had to be invaded, the nukes not dropped, and post-war Japan still turning out as it did historically. Oh, except possibly minus the Ginormous "National Nuke-Victim"-complex post-war Japan developed.

One might even wax ambitiously hypothetical here, and ask whether without the nukes it might even have been possible that Japan would have had some kind of post-war responsibility debate more akin to what the Germans had about their role in the war, better and more comprehensive? It's a long-shot certainly, but without the Japanese collectivised, vicarious experience of being "the only country nuked in WWII", at least it seem more than likely it would change the tenor of a Japanese post-war self-understanding.
 
In the end, it saved the lives of probably millions if not tens of millions of Alliance and Japanese lives.

The Japanese had massed half a million troops on Kyushu (they brought back some troops from China to reinforce this), which was to be the initial landing zone for the Western Allies. Given how the fighting had been so far in the island-hopping campaign, the results were going to be pretty ugly. If anything, there were more troops on Honshu. Plus the Japanese had scrapped together a few thousand planes (I think 2k?) for kamikaze attacks, though I think the Western Allies weren't aware of this at this time I believe.

The early surrender ensured that Japan got off relatively lightly fr its aggressive, expansionist project, compared with the devastation of Nazi Germany (esp in the east).

Wow, haven't seen you around in a long time.

But yeah, that's what I'm saying. Between the losses to the Allied military, the Japanese military, and the losses to the civilians, prolonging the war was the greater evil in every way.

Verbose - there's no certainty in warfare. The Americans, assuming that they dropped the atomic weapons to obtain unconditional surrender ASAP (a reasonable assumption given available documentation), had no obligation to accurately predict every possible outcome before comign to that decision. No one can do that, and if that was required before acting, no one would ever be allowed to act.

You look at the facts you have. You try and do your best to come up with a reasonable interpretation. And you come up with the most reasonable way of fixing whatever is wrong with the situation. There's not much else you can do.
 
Hello there. :) Just supplying a bit of detail... :p

One further note, it is said that the atomic bombings were only one half of the shock to hit the Japanese decision-makers. The other was the Soviet declaration of war and their rapid invasion of Manchuria. That really nailed it for them that their game was up for good.

Still, the Japanese decision-making collective was paralysed till the end. It took the emperor himself finally to decide to surrender before the Japanese people were wiped out.

Even then, there were diehard militarists who tried to stage a coup to stop him. Fortunately they didn't succeed and the emperor managed to get on air and call on the Japanese to surrender. Otherwise it would be hell to dig out all the various Japanese military units entrenched all over East Asia.
 
Verbose - there's no certainty in warfare. The Americans, assuming that they dropped the atomic weapons to obtain unconditional surrender ASAP (a reasonable assumption given available documentation)

Operationally, the bombs (the only two in existence at the time) were used to soften up southern Japan for the upcoming invasion of Kyushu. Hiroshima, especially, as it was the HQ of the entire Kyushu command and an IJA logistics center.

I suppose there was a lot of concern that the bombs would be wasted military if they had banked on making the biggest psychological impact to cause a surrender.
 
ı think ı would challenge the assumption that there were only two . ı think it was posted on CFC that 5 would be ready for September , meaning they would in the hands of the 509th. This "cutting it fine" attitude seems to be a propaganda issue which in my humble opinion stems from the thing that Japan had surrendered by the nukes started going around .
 
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