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Usual for Monarch?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Zelda's Man, Jan 13, 2006.

  1. Zelda's Man

    Zelda's Man A Link to Something

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    In my current game I am playing as the Greeks. It is my first monarch game and I am sandwiched between Monte, Louis, and Saladin. Monte declared war on me early presumably because I was expanding a lot without building much military. While fighting him, Louis declared war and attacked from the other side. I grabbed one of Monte's cities and went to peace so I could focus on Louis. While fighting Louis, Saladin declared war on me. So I grabbed one of Louis's cities and went to peace. While fighting Saladin, Monte declared war on me again! I razed one of Saladin's cities, but no peace yet.

    I have good relations with America and England, but I am behind them in tech so I can't buy help. I am building so many units for war I can't improve my cities very much.

    Is this typical for monarch level? Is it the close borders that is causing all the DOWs, or do you think the AI thinks my cities are easy pickings (usually 2 defenders max on peaceful fronts) when I am attacking another civ?
     
  2. benjai

    benjai Chieftain

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    Being sandwiched by 3 neighbours at high difficulty levels is very unpleasant. From the early stages, have one of your productions cities focus on military. Also try to be friendly with all your neighbours ie give them tributes, open borders etc. I usually end up pretty well with 2 of them for a long enough spell so that when the 3rd on attacks, I can call for help. If you're not a warmonger, military defense and friends are vital at monarch+.
     
  3. shadow2k

    shadow2k Emperor

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    Did you do something to upset the AI's?

    Monty will declare if you refuse his tribute demands. Saladin doesn't tolerate different religions. No AI likes it when you settle too close to their city borders.

    I have yet to get dogpiled in Civ4. But in the Monarch games I played, I never once got dogpiled. Actually, I don't think anyone ever declared on me early.

    How early is "early"? What kind of troops did you have in your cities, and what were you being attacked with? What was the diplo situation? Religion? Tech race? Land grab over? There's really no way to tell you why, only that you did something wrong...or at least, something the AI thought was wrong.
     
  4. Krupo

    Krupo Old-time newsgrouper

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    I remember on a noble level game getting attacked by Alexander. The fight was a lost cause (I think he was sitting on a key resource like iron which I desperately needed to fight back).

    I reloaded to a save from several hundred years in the past, and pumped out a relatively huge army and piled it up next to his border. By the time in the first 'alternate history' when he declared war on me I contacted him, and demanded tribute. He complied... then I ransacked his border towns anyway, pushing down towards Athens, which IIRC, was sitting on a hill.

    I ended up taking it down with a suicidal charge of longbowmen, plus a few 'real' attackers, which I had in short supply. Good times.

    That game ended with a pleasant domination victory. Quite a weird game, though; my empire was cleaved in two by the Romans, who had enormous culture (depriving me of the badly needed resources closest to my home cities!) - but the Romans stayed friendly, joining in any war which I was winning, and generally being quite helpful despite sitting like a tumour in the middle of my empire.
     
  5. Toshiro126

    Toshiro126 Warlord

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    In a simple word: yes.

    At least that was my experience in the game, although it was actually on Noble, not Monarch. Monty was on my border, and I had sent a large number of troops south to beat on Isabella. I left some defenses in my cities, but almost all my cavalary and cannons were to the south. While they were down there, Monty attacked me even though we had good relations and were also the same religion. He's just an opportunist, and gets worse when all the land on the island is claimed and he's boxed in. It was quite a mess!! :eek:

    So I from my experience, Monty is definitely an opportunist, and the French can be too. Saladin I normally don't have problem with for some reason...
     
  6. Torello

    Torello Chieftain

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    I think this is a common problem. This used to happen to me a lot too.
    Based on what other people have posted in the forum and my experience, the AI is very likely to attack you when you have a good score and low power (military). They don't want you to be able to expand a lot and build peacefully without having to defend yourself. You can't get around this problem by having good relations with the AIs, they will often declare war even from 'Pleased' or maybe even 'Friendly'.

    The only solution I know of is to build more military, even if you're going to be peaceful. My general rule is as soon as I get my 3rd city I need to have enough units to start having to pay maintenance on them, and never drop below that amount.
     
  7. sirford

    sirford Title indicates royalty

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    I've been playing with monarch the past month or so. If they see that your military is weak in respect to your empire's worth in size and tech, they will declare war on you. I usually deter all the AIs from attacking me by completely conquering 3-4 civs before 1200AD (mostly with swordsmans and catapults). All lost time to tech up can be earned back easily when your empire is 3-400% it's previous size. After I adopted this warmongering strategy, I've never seen a AI civ declare war on me.
     
  8. Zelda's Man

    Zelda's Man A Link to Something

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    By early I mean that I was still in the first age. I had a few warriors, archers, couple axemen, and couple spearmen. I had just built my 6th city which basically ended the land grab as far as I could tell. Monty was a few techs ahead and attacked with horse archers and war elephants. I believe I was the same religion as Washington, but different than the rest. That could be a clue for Saladin.

    I think I rejected Monty's tribute demands as I thought they were outrageous. As an emporer/demi-god player on civ 3 I typically rejected demands for expensive techs. Is it better to give in in this game?
     
  9. genjiboy

    genjiboy Chieftain

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    If a city bordering Aztec territory only has 2 defenders, then it wont be a "peaceful front" for very long. Build defensive structures there, and send units with city defence promotions. Send a lot of them. Keep your non-border cities defended, but less so (unless you can afford it). And train a couple of naval units to protect against sneak attacks from the sea.

    If my cities aren't well-protected, then I tend not to sign Open Border agreements, especially with Aggressive leaders like Monte or Napoleon. If they're going to attack, it's best they don't know where to attack.
     
  10. Krupo

    Krupo Old-time newsgrouper

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    Monty... monty... monty... oh yeah, Montezuma. [before I paused to think my brain was stuck on Montgomery. And as great as he was, he isn't the leader of the English]

    'Zuma's been a jerk since Civ 1.

    See, I sometimes feel that way. But I simultaneously don't believe the computer "blinds" itself as to the knowledge of my empire and will instead cheat and 'know' where to go anyway... so I take the trade benefits from Open Borders against AI, thinking that it'll know where to attack me anyway if or when things get sour.
     
  11. genjiboy

    genjiboy Chieftain

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    I have no idea whether the AI cheats in this way. It would be good to know for sure. At any rate, if he founds a religion and builds a shrine, he'll be able to see my cities regardless of Open Border arrangements.
     
  12. shadow2k

    shadow2k Emperor

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    Old habits die hard. :)

    I usually reject most demands as well, same as I did in C3. I can't stand getting bullied by an AI, and most of the last C3 games I played were all the defiant variants where you refuse all demands, and kicked them out if they ignored your borders.

    But, diplomacy is much different in C4. You can make real allies that don't forget how good of a friend you've been (usually). Religion, trades, Open Borders, Civics, War Allies...all play a large role. Some weigh things differently. You'll start to learn their nuances as you play more games, just like everything else.

    Monty though, has a pattern for early demands, and war shortly after for refusing.
     
  13. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    First of all, could we stop using the word Monty? As mentioned it tends to cause confusion. IT will also suck for future expansion packs when Montgomery is added and people view these other threads and is totaly puzzled.

    Anyhow, I did a test last night, I built just one city and put in 20 units. A strong mixture between bowment, axemen, spearmen, and swordsmen. Even this did not stop Ghengis Kan (who I gave EVERYTHING) in to, and had not even one negative rating on our relation... He instantly declared war (even right after a trade deal where he was PLEASED) Strangely enough, he was on the other side of the continent and had to make his way through other nations to get to me.

    If that isn't proof tha the AI is biased against the human player in 1.5 on Monarch level, then I don't know what else is... I know god damn well the AI would NEVER attack another AI that was apart of this distance. "We would have nothing to gain."

    This also proves that the ratio of your city/culture to your units inside them have nothing to do with a deterrence.
     
  14. Grogs

    Grogs King

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    I think it's just the raw power of your empire (from the graph on the F9 screen) compared to the AI's.

    As for the original poster's situation: you were in a bad spot. From my experiences, Montezuma is coming after you sooner or later. I accept that as a given and usually try to strike first. Saladin (and Isabella) are most likely coming after you if you have a different religion than they do. If you have the same religion, they'll be your best friend. Louis usually seems to be pretty level-headed from my experiences, although obviously not in your game.

    On maps where I've got a lot of neighbors, I usually don't found and switch to a religion right away. If I do found a religion, I'll try to convert a couple of civs to it before I switch. If I don't found a religion (which is common for me) I'll pick the religion of one of my neighbors. That way, they'll usually help out if I get attacked. I've found that having a completely different religion than everyone else on a pangea is a good way to get dogpiled.
     
  15. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    I used to adapt to other religions because some people claimed it was supposed to give you protection. So far my results have not been positive. If the AI wants to attack you, it will attack you, plain and simple. You can have adapted its religion, and been as kind as ever giving everything away to it, but it will still attack you! You can't stop it.

    On the other hand, if an AI doesn't want to attack you, it simply won't. No matter how much you make it pissed off at you, there is no way you can FORCE it to attack you.

    I still say there is far too much emphasis on this relations meter, which often gives pure nonsense results.
     
  16. Krupo

    Krupo Old-time newsgrouper

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    I founded Buddhism, and the rest of my freakin' continent was Hindu. After vainly sending out missionaries I gave up and hoped they'd be nice to me. They were... but that -3 about religion was a drag on relations.

    I gave up and switched to Hinduism while my army was weak, and they were happy to trade with me.

    Then I built up a huge army and they didn't like me anymore; I was huge and powerful and killed 2 other civs.

    So back to Buddhism, so I can be special (and enjoy the fact most of my cities still only had Buddhism!); nobody's going to be nice to me anyway now!


    So yeah, religion's effect helps tip things in your favour; if you're too big or too small then it won't have much of an effect; important thing to note, I'd say.
     
  17. alexti2

    alexti2 Prince

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    I'm not sure if attitude affects AI intentions to attack you. And if you don't neglect your army, it won't attack you anyway. The main benefit of good attitude is that AI will be more willing to trade techs with you, sign open borders etc...
     
  18. joasoze

    joasoze Warlord

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    I tend to loose the game on monarch late game due to not producing enough military. In my last game Montezuma attacked me and I could not resist his huge army with tanks and helicopters. I was 300 points ahead of him (I was no 1 and he no 2 in score), but my armies were too small.

    Note to self. The three most important things for survival are military, military and miltary!
     
  19. voek

    voek Prince

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    up to date military
     

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