UU swaping

[mr_lewington]

Which Civ's UU would you replace and put in with IYO, a better one and with what stats?
I'll go first:
England:
Either a redcoat to replace the Rifleman, 5/7/1 or a WW1 era Tank researched in replacable parts, 12/9/1

 

[Northen Wolf]

Redcoats stats are too awsome 5/7/1, You would make unit that kills all units on battlefield, should be more like 2/6/1.....

I'm guessing I'd Give addon to the Mayans Javelin thrower, Would give him enslave ability that enslaves enemy EVERY time it defeats one... Makes up for weak defense and offense, otherwise it is just a gamble if Mayans UU was the best choise for the game.

 

[mr_lewington]

Redcoats stats are too awsome 5/7/1, You would make unit that kills all units on battlefield, should be more like 2/6/1.....

Ah but thing is that they did kill all armies (not litteraly of course, but the redcoats were 1 of if not the most feared soldiers for a substantial period in comparison to Rome. Also the rifleman is 4/6/1 so... yeah. I agree that the mayan spearthrower lacks meat on the bones, but a 100% enslavement ratio would, IMO, be too much

 

[Tasslehoff]

With Rifleman at 4/6/1, I don't think a 5/7/1 is too much. It's attack is still under that of Cavs, and it's defense isn't a great amount better. You'd still scrap it the second you hit Infantry.

In any case, I usually get Infantry before Nationalism, and I don't think a 5/7/1 Rifle would be enough to make me change that.

 

[darski]

I still think the worst UU in the game is the Egyptian war chariot. I do think that it should be made much stronger but I think it is just way too early a unit to do what they want. I am not aware of any good player who builds chariots at all. They are pretty much a waste of shields.

But then I don't build any horse units before knights.

 

[Mursi lives]

I conquered entire continents with the egyptian chariot, and i am certainly not the only one.

As for the english UU, i suggest a 5/1/1 longbow. We frenchies suffered a lot against those guys. A riffle UU would have almost no impact on the game.

 

[Pyrrhos]

The current Legionary is rubbish and akin to the first real-life version slaughtered at Cannae. They were twice improved, vastly, in the centuries that followed.

I'd replace that with a 4-4-1 unit that requires Republic, has the enslave ability (Rome was a slave economy after all), can build roads & fortresses @ 50% worker efficiency that costs 30 shields plus one pop point.

In fact, I have tried that and it works well without being too overpowering.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Either a redcoat to replace the Rifleman, 5/7/1 or a WW1 era Tank researched in replacable parts, 12/9/1

The "Redcoat" would be a good choice albeit the fact that the way many people play (Steam power - Electricity - Replaceable parts) makes the Rifleman one of the redundant units of Civ III. In fact, both Rifleman and Redcoat would have to be available with Mil Trad in order to be of any use.

The WW I Tank would be a not so good choice. First, because the tank had little impact on the war even though it enjoyed some spectacular tactical success when introduced. Second, the statline is not a fair representation of the WWI tank which was mostly used as a movable fixed firing position providing physical cover for the infantry whilst being moved. 4-10-1 would be a better reflection of its fighting power. Third, with the research path taken by most, the WW I tank would be available for 11 techs and 44 turns at a minimum. This is WAAAAY too long and it would win most games in that time, something that has no foundation in history.

 

[timerover51]

Actually, part of the problem that you are discussing is the real lack of differentiation between lower tech and higher tech units. A Roman legionaire has a 25% chance or so of taking out a Marine unit, based on the combat results information in the manual. Given the addiction of WW2 Japanese infantry units to hand to hand combat, and the gleeful slaughter inflicted on them by Marines, a Roman legionaire should be dead meat verses a Marine unit, as an example. And the Zulu Impis did wipe out a battalion of British riflemen at Isandlwhana, but you did have about 12,000 Zulu to 600 English, while at Roorke's Drift, about 140 of those English riflemen held off 4,000 Zulu, fighting from a good defensive position, and not running out of ammunition like at Isandlwhana. I can see an upgraded Legionaire, as the Romans should be able to beat consistently the Greek hoplites. Same with the upgraded Longbowman, but higher level techs should be upgraded as well to reflect the changes.

As for changes to UU, I have boosted the Swiss Mercenary for the Dutch a bit to reflect the fact that they were the best shock infantry in Europe during their timeframe. They should be able to make mincemeat out of the Knight. I have also boosted the Crusader, not a unique unit but you do have to build the Knights Templar, both as a combat troop, and as an engineer unit beyond making fortresses. As for the British, since I play naval maps at lot, I would like to see the British get the Ironclad immediately with Steam Power, and not as a separate tech, and have given the ship more speed, firepower, and defense. A galley should not be able to take down an Ironclad. However, in boosting this, I have boosted all of the other naval units too.

Once you start boosting units, even unique ones, you need to think about the units higher up the tech ladder. Remember, even with a 5/1/1 longbowman, the English converted to the musket by 1600, as the superior weapon. Therefore, the musketmen needs to be upgraded as well, and then the domino effect starts. I am working on a complete uprating off the naval vessels in the game. When that is done to my satisfaction, I will start working on the infantry, cavalry, and mechanised units, until they feel right. I will then post the results, and let the rest of you have fun with them.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Very well put, Timerover51! Indeed you have to adjust every other unit, but do so considerately and prudently. Not all "medieval" units were superior to every antique unit. Even though it is possible to find examples of great upsets such as Isandlhwana, the rule was that units equipped with firearms/cannon such as the galleon defeated units without such as the caravel/carrack. The rule was that units with rifled barrels such as riflemen defeated units without such as musketmen/musketeers. The rule is that a technologically more advanced unit will defeat, and will defeat heavily, a technologically less advanced one, except under unusual circumstances.

 

[Chamnix]

The current Legionary is rubbish and akin to the first real-life version slaughtered at Cannae. They were twice improved, vastly, in the centuries that followed.

I'd replace that with a 4-4-1 unit that requires Republic, has the enslave ability (Rome was a slave economy after all), can build roads & fortresses @ 50% worker efficiency that costs 30 shields plus one pop point.

In fact, I have tried that and it works well without being too overpowering.

A unit that combines the attack of a medieval infantry and the defense of a musketman available in around 1500 BC for the cost of 1 archer + 1 worker?! I don't think there would be any use for levels less than Sid with that unit...

The best UUs are offensive units given stronger offense or more speed (with an honorable mention to ones that are just cheaper than the unit they replace). They also have to come early enough to be useful. I'd like a 3/1/1 archer please .

 

[Chamnix]

I still think the worst UU in the game is the Egyptian war chariot. I do think that it should be made much stronger but I think it is just way too early a unit to do what they want. I am not aware of any good player who builds chariots at all. They are pretty much a waste of shields.

But then I don't build any horse units before knights.

War chariot = 20 shield horseman available with the Wheel. Depending on your map, the terrain restrictions may be an inconvenience, but 20 shield horsemen = .

 

[Pyrrhos]

A unit that combines the attack of a medieval infantry and the defense of a musketman available in around 1500 BC for the cost of 1 archer + 1 worker?! I don't think there would be any use for levels less than Sid with that unit...

First, how many would you build if it cost you a pop point? Around 1500BC you do well to have eight or more towns. If you build Legions at that stage, you do so instead of settlers and workers, thus you compromise expansion - i.e you'd lose! Of course, you could build Legions to develop your land but at three times the cost, 50% the efficiency and only roads and fortresses, that's a bad option.

Second, what about the overpowered Persian Immortal then? At 4-2-1 it is the equal of the MDI, but at 30 shields only? In comparison to that, the Legion I propose is moderate!

I'd like a 3/1/1 archer please .

No way! Archers, bowmen and longbowmen, for some inexplicable reason, punch far heavier than their statline would suggest, both in offense and defense. Their stats should be lowered if anything!

 

[Snarkhunter]

Riflemen are a different breed from the standard Redcoat, so they don't stand out as uniquely Brit; they really stem from Capt. Minie's 19th century conical expanding base bullet. If you want a uniquely Brit Redcoat, do something like give it an extra HP--that more accurately characterizes the steadiness in Civ terms that we associate with the Redcoat in history.

I'd argue, though, that British seapower was even more characteristic, especially the frigate. So I'd look for a frigate improvement.

As for others, I think you could make a case for the German Stosstruppen, as this revolutionized 20th century tactics, as opposed to the Panzer (which was inferior, technically speaking, for most of the war--what the Unit is really getting at is the German revival of mobile war, but the infantry revolution is even more important, IMHO). Several ways you could go with this: higher attack/defense, more HP, an extra movement point, ignoring free shots from armies/barricades/missile troops, ability to build their own forts, or--my favorite--when they attack, cutting any defender benefits in half (or even ignoring altogether) or better, & getting rid of even the grassland bonus. Because that's really what the Stosstruppen did, made the defense much less effective.

For the US, the F15 is a headscratcher. Certainly does not reflect anything characteristic about American power. I'd want something like the Minuteman, an improved musketeer, with extra speed, maybe, or much lower cost (to reflect the ubiquity of an armed militia). Or a carrier that actually does project some power--maybe it comes with a fighter unit automatically attached, or awesome defense to reflect the CAP & escort group native to it. Or a better heavy bomber: range of, o, 20 to 30. That much more reflects US power projection in the 20th century.

Or, again my favorite, ToT (time-on-target) artillery. This refers to all artillery fire against a given target impacting at roughly the same time, to within a few seconds. this is infinitely more devastating than spreading a bombardment out. The US didn't invent it, but perfected the system before WWII, along with the capability of allowing someone like a platoon leader to call down supporting fire from darn near every tube in an entire corps, much less his own division, & to get it there on time. Not sure how you do it in game terms, but the effect would be something like a much greater probability of hitting the target & doing damage from the RNG, and/or possibly a much greater bombardment rate--give it a 4 or so.

Any of these would make more sense to me than the F15, which had a relatively limited run, vs. these items.

kk

 

[Chamnix]

First, how many would you build if it cost you a pop point? Around 1500BC you do well to have eight or more towns. If you build Legions at that stage, you do so instead of settlers and workers, thus you compromise expansion - i.e you'd lose! Of course, you could build Legions to develop your land but at three times the cost, 50% the efficiency and only roads and fortresses, that's a bad option.

Second, what about the overpowered Persian Immortal then? At 4-2-1 it is the equal of the MDI, but at 30 shields only? In comparison to that, the Legion I propose is moderate!

How many would you need? With 8 cities producing that unit, I'd expect to conquer my continent at a standard or smaller map size before the end of the Ancient Age. The AI would build settlers for my expansion . And you even gave your legion enslave ability so I wouldn't need to build as many workers.

The Persian Immortal is a very good UU but not overpowered. It is slow and not a great defender - to attack, it must approach a city over multiple turns. Swordsmen can kill them and horses and archers have a fighting chance. With your legions, nothing in the Ancient Age can expect to kill them without vastly superior numbers. Put 5 of your legions on flat ground unfortified marching toward a city - how many swords do you think an enemy must have to expect to kill only 5? If the AI doesn't have iron, how many archers do you think it would take?

Spoiler answers :

You would need 11 swordsmen or 15 archers to have a greater than 50% chance of killing 5 unfortified legions (with defense 4) on flat ground.

 

[TheOverseer714]

The legions were good but weren't unstoppable. I like the way the legions worked in the Rise of Rome scenario, getting better with better tech. I think 3/3/1 is a poor reflection of the legions, maybe it should be 4/3/1 or 3/3/2. Or treat plains or grass tiles as roaded.

 

[Mursi lives]

4/3/1 or 3/3/2 combined with the mil trait would be unstoppable, but I agree that legions are too weak in the game.
Giving them the ability to build roads should be enough to make Rome strong AA power but not uber-Iroquois.

 

[Quintillus]

I still think the worst UU in the game is the Egyptian war chariot. I do think that it should be made much stronger but I think it is just way too early a unit to do what they want. I am not aware of any good player who builds chariots at all. They are pretty much a waste of shields.

But then I don't build any horse units before knights.

The War Chariot is actually quite powerful. You can pump out lots of them quickly, especially when a Golden Age is triggered, often one every two turns per city in the core, and they get retreat abilities that increase their numbers in a war even more. It's not that difficult to completely overwhelm an enemy with pure number with the War Chariot, and then advance on them with devestating speed once you've got the numbers.

Then once you reach Chivalry you can do a huge mass upgrade to Knights and have a devastating force once again. Or keep using massive amounts of War Chariots until Military Tradition (as cheap as they are you can make enough to make them halfway decent until you're fighting muskets), and then mass-upgrade to tons of Cavalry.

4/3/1 or 3/3/2 combined with the mil trait would be unstoppable, but I agree that legions are too weak in the game.
Giving them the ability to build roads should be enough to make Rome strong AA power but not uber-Iroquois.

I like the road-building option, very Roman. Stronger stats than the Immortal seems almost too much for the Ancient Age though. The extra defensive point already makes them very difficult to stop.

5/1/1 Longbow also seems like a good idea. It would make Longbows actually worth it. But Man-O-War is already a good unique unit for Britain, even if its useful life in Civ is rather short.

 

[mr_lewington]

How about US Marines?
maybe an early one representing the late 18th century (although some countries already utilized marines) or 1 replacing the standard marine. I dont have any good stats atm . For Arabia, id give them the mameluke, and make it replace cavalry.

 

[againsttheflow]

The legions were good but weren't unstoppable. I like the way the legions worked in the Rise of Rome scenario, getting better with better tech. I think 3/3/1 is a poor reflection of the legions, maybe it should be 4/3/1 or 3/3/2. Or treat plains or grass tiles as roaded.

I too liked how they worked in rise of Rome. For regular Civ I think I would rather just give them an extra hp and maybe give them the road building ability (which Fireaxis already provided the animation for). Treating plains or grass as roaded is impossible given the limitations of the editor.

I'm guessing I'd Give addon to the Mayans Javelin thrower, Would give him enslave ability that enslaves enemy EVERY time it defeats one...

This too cannot be done.