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v38 future Patches and Updates

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by JosEPh_II, Feb 16, 2018.

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  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    While you HAVE seen a few rare cases where I did get a bit emotional over an issue, I'm usually pretty emotionless about this kind of bias. I do not see it as not 'liking' your balance. In fact, I felt it was very good on the settings I had used. What became apparent was that it was desperately flawed for some settings. This was something you refused to be willing to work with us to address. I admit that's because, indeed, it required some dramatic reworking from the base up to correct it.

    But let's just make sure the air is clear on this right now. This has and has had NOTHING to do with any personal bias. My ONLY concern is that all settings are equally valid for play.

    We should take this discussion elsewhere.
     
  2. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    ok, so I tried a nightmare game on SVN9975. Snail/large map. Techspeed was ok but building stuff was extremely slow. Barbarian activity was fierce: lots of cities spawned, boxing me and my AI civ neighbour in. It really hurt his hunting and complicated mine. Thanks to a good starting position and troublesome but successful hunting I managed to stay competitive in the tech race and slowly caught up on my backlog of buildings mid-prehistoric.

    Then I saw that Toffer90 did some updates on regular deity, so I updated to svn9976 and tried out a new game deity/snail/large map.
    I founded my starting city but soon it went into unhappiness due to massive unhealth. I started with something like +10 disease/turn which soon turned on disease autobuildings, which gave me unhappiness which took out my only productive citizen. So the start is extremely slow as I have only the 2 hammers from my center tile to invest with.

    EDIT: but once I researched cave dwelling I got my productive citizen back.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  4. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I said "How" I balanced, is what you 2 did not like. Big difference in contrast to your reply.

    And they were. So in this regard I must disagree. And because I disagreed during the process and was not responding favorably to Forced changes it did get personal. Very much so. To deny this is stuffing it under the rug.

    But you 2 have made your decisions in PMs that left me out. And what has been done is Done.

    Now the Mod is undergoing changes and player disapproval that All could've been avoided by being a bit more judicious in the Force out and it's timing. Caveman2Cosmos is no longer SO's vision, it is yours foremost and Toffer's who is rapidly overtaking even yours. Soon this will be the Caveman2 My Take on Stuff. As I told Toffer already I have lost confidence and trust in the "vision. And as such Caveman2Cosmos died for me about 2 weeks before the v38 release. The Mod I Loved is gone. I don't think I have had a worse feeling of loss since my best friend died 4 years ago.

    Now all this could've been said in a PM. But then that would not work either now would it. As I would receive another round of derision that was uncalled for. You have stabbed me deeply. And while I can Forgive and I Do, I'll say it in Public right now. I Forgive You. Unfortunately It will be a long time before I forget. It's who I am. (I have been accused of having a memory like an elephant.) I once had Afforess tell me he never gets mad or has a bias. I told him he was a liar. It Is human nature.

    So there it is all laid out on the table. So be Mad, Glad, Sad, or Uncaring, or whatever. I bared my chest, have your will.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    If they were, DH and Magnus would not have found their settings unplayable just before release. The easiest setting in terms of keeping up buildings with techs would not have been Deity-Nightmare, nor the hardest to maintain construction vs tech being the easiest settings.

    I say this knowing we still have a little work yet to do here.

    You:
    A) Stated that you wanted to have nothing further to do with the project
    and
    B) Have repeatedly (including now) refused to admit there were any problems to solve. I often feel as if you just aren't considering the observations that are being made because you just don't want to admit something needs to be done. Either that or it's related to a refusal to even try to understand that the numbers say anything meaningful, that math actually works to prove a point.

    So when you said you would not do anything further to help resolve the problems that existed, I'm really unsure why you would be offended when we took you at your word that you had washed your hands of it.

    I'll take some responsibility here too... I made some mistakes and those mistakes required some re-adjustments when fixing the underlying flaws. By refusing to work with me to correct those, you stepped out of the position and as I promised I would, I gladly allowed someone I had greater faith in, due to his displayed ability to understand the situation, to take charge of further adjustments. He may have done some things you or I wouldn't, but I get why he chooses to do the things he does and NONE of it is based on a personal bias.

    I get the experiential method but if its being employed without a greater understanding of the math and an ability to see the fundamental flaws that were found 'at a glance', then you're going to end up in a position where you cannot solve with small changes It's like building a house one 2x4 at a time without a blueprint and then wondering why one room happens to have all wonky angles and then just shutting the door on that room and denying it even exists because you won't tear out a part of the home so you can lay a flat foundation finally.

    I have been just as flawed at times here and have had to learn to improve my approach. So I don't mean any of this to be offensive but I know, sadly, it will be. Because whether we see the end results just before commit as perfect or not is an emotional issue rather than a logical one for you, which is exactly why I'm not able to just revert all these changes to soothe your wounded ego. They have been made based on a logical cause and effect.

    If you're going to throw a fit and say you won't work with us to solve problems and just refuse to admit that there is one, when there most certainly is, what are we supposed to choose to do?
    @strategyonly Is this how you feel?
     
  6. Tajo

    Tajo Chieftain

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    Hear hear!
     
  7. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Here you go again of accusing me of "throwing a fit". You are the one that threw the fit when I said there was a problem before the v38 release after you made your erroneous decision to change the formula that you swore was exact and then proved Not to be.

    So go on keep tagging and labeling me. I expect it.

    To quote my self, what is done is Done.

    Take it however you see fit. Continue to throw blame at me for saying something was wrong when it Obviously was. And that I was uncooperative by not accepting a flawed formula that you have had to adjust multiple times already. Really? Why would I want to work on something so obviously broken when I did not cause the breakage. And at the same time see all my efforts thrown aside like so much trash. A reminder I have reported and played test games with all the new settings, but that just does not count now does it. You made the mess, I did not. You broke the code, I did not. So stop blaming me for your mistakes.

    You made a poor decision at a very poor time to do so. Live up to it. It is yours alone.
     
  8. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Do you need me to quote the post where you said you were done and would not continue working on this? Is your problem that I call this 'throwing a fit'? This is a statement you cannot come back from. Leave the post and it's not there for you when you come back.

    Yeah we were having some trouble communicating because you wouldn't say what the parameters of your observations were and since others were reporting things were fine and you weren't, it was a bit confusing getting conflicting reports. Nevertheless, I kept looking for a problem since there was the insistence that it existed. Others looked for it and found it before I did and pointed out exactly where the problem was. And it got fixed. There was a little frustration in the meantime. Sorry for that.

    However, running around saying nothing but that there's a problem and focusing more on who's to blame rather than helping to try to narrow in on what the problem is is a little less than helpful and is doing nothing more than trying to break down someone's reputation. So yes, I took your words to be more those of someone thrilled to have something to criticize for political gain, rather than those of someone truly concerned about trying to find solutions.

    How have I either tagged OR labeled you?

    That has nothing to do with what I was saying above. I was referring to your insistence that just before we started 'tampering' with things, everything was great. So sure we both had a moment when one was saying there was a problem and the other was either not understanding that there was or how. But in the end, I fixed the problems on my end and you gave up.

    Once corrected, you still call it flawed just because now you've built your numbers around the previous flaw and just don't want the inconvenience of having to deal with the fix disrupting your setup.

    What are you referring to here?

    This was due to other problems existing in the numbers you established that had nothing to do with the code issues.

    You did with the ratio of production to tech cost being so off between settings.

    It was never right to begin with. And there were multiple areas. We aren't talking about one needed correction. There were code flaws, yes. That was part of it. And fixing them caused some more problems, yes. That was another part of it. But there were also problems in the established values that became apparent when the whole thing was put under a community microscope. I don't care if it was your fault or not. I really don't care who's fault is who's or who's responsible for what. I care that it's right. And at the point in time that the coding was corrected you said you didn't want to have anything more to do with it. So stop whining for stepping aside and what's happened because another way of looking at things was applied thereafter. You chose that.
     
  9. Noriad2

    Noriad2 Chieftain

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    Cree trackers are not only quite strong for their early accessibility in the tech tree, but the fact that you can build 15 of them means you can do a game breaking amount of hunting. Especially that they are almost untouchable in the early game and are sometimes able to take out competing "normal" trackers.

    I suggest limiting them to 5 max. A limit that I will impose on myself voluntarily in my newest Nightmare balance test game, or it will be pointless for comparison.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  10. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    Aren't cultural units domain of @Dancing Hoskuld?
     
  11. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Chieftain

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    @strategyonly are you fine with having link to other version of mod? That is SVN 9884 with few changes.
    What do you think about current balance overhaul?
     
  12. Shoobs

    Shoobs Chieftain

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    Cree trackers are also situational and a good number of the other ones are not at their level or come after trackers are available, and I am a smidge frustrated that a blanket nerf was given to all of the ones involved.
     
  13. Tajo

    Tajo Chieftain

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    Thanks, I'll give it a go. At least the wootz steel-promotion is still broken. Haven't met any other civs yet, it is interesting to see if AI can manage it's cities now and perhaps even wage war :)
     
  14. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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  15. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I have asked the Mods to Lock this thread.

    I will leave the link active for a week though. Then I will pull the version from my dropbox account

    But "conversation" here is finished.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  16. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Moderator Action: Closed for review.
     
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