v42+ Tech Tree Project - Item #3: Prehistoric Tech Renames as a Whole? (Discussion)

Item #1 Vote: Trapping Was Suggested to change to Trap Hunting

  • Trapping

    Votes: 8 100.0%
  • Trap Hunting

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8
  • Poll closed .

Thunderbrd

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As part of the massive Unit Review I have been working on, I will be making a number of additional technologies and shifting the tree around a bit to accomodate for those.

Hopefully this will also mean some perceived improvements in the tech tree in the process.

Most of the changes will be in or around the Industrial up through the Transhuman I believe.

One thing many of these changes will do is create more granularity in key places in historical development.

As a result of this project taking place, I'm locking down the tech tree. I would request that nobody else manipulate the tree at all until I release it from this lock, which will be sometime soon after I've caught up to all the planned changes.

During this time, however, some things have come up. I was working on a lot of this with 'spocksglock' on discord (sorry don't remember what you call yourself on the forum?). He's a literal historian with a focus on military history in the more modern eras. He made some observations that would suggest some renaming of some techs to recast them perhaps in a more accurate light. Along the way, we worked on a document that was made public, and I think that some suggestions from raxo and others may have made it onto that document as well.

Since I'm not sure who's suggestion from this planning document was who's, and some I agree with and others, not so much, I thought we might open ourselves up here to putting each one of these renaming suggestions under a microscope for discussion and a vote (since we have the coolness of polling options now.)

Maybe some other items for discussion and consideration will come up as a result as well.

This may represent a new era in how we mod as a community and may stand as an example of how to go about certain things. Let's see how focused we can keep this.

This first post will obviously be where I can create a poll. But I cannot create a poll and have a fair vote on it until ALL options for that poll are determined.

So what we'll do is open up a discussion point, then after a few days or a week or so, I'll open up polling which I will keep open for a number of specified days that may vary based on previous experiences with these polls. We'll all have the opportunity to comment and suggest during the discussion phase (and may also start a discussion phase as soon as polling on the previous item has begun.) This allows points to be made - let's not let this get stupid or hostile guys... we've proven we can have some savage political discussions without hating each other and staying friends regardless, so I'm sure we can manage THIS.

Some of these items may seem pretty superfluous. Some will be. Some will still care where others think a point is pointless to have brought up. Let's see how this goes eh?

Also, this isn't about changing the plans I have for tree adjustments but we can talk about some of those points somewhere along the way here I'm sure.

ITEM #2:
The Tech Scraping (x6/y3) had been suggested to be changed to 'Stone Peelers'


In a few days of comment collection here, we'll vote on which name to run with. If anyone has any reason for or against the name change, or would like to suggest another name entirely, speak now on the subject.

Note: side concepts aside from the name itself that get brought up by putting this under a microscope can be mentioned and become another item for discussion and voting, possibly even on another thread.


I'm going to @ a few here just to call them to take note of this new thread but all voices are welcome:
@raxo2222 , @Toffer90 , @MattCA , @JosEPh_II , @strategyonly ,@flabbert
 
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Thunderbrd

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Current Vote Item

ITEM #1
It was suggested by who knows who to rename the tech 'Trapping' (x6/y9) to 'Trap Hunting'.

Current Discussion Item
ITEM #2:
The Tech Scraping (x6/y3) had been suggested to be changed to 'Stone Peelers'
 
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Thunderbrd

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Personally, I like Trapping and don't see cause for this particular rename, nor do I necessarily feel the need to suggest any other names. As an aside, part of the unit review stuff I'm working on should flesh out the trap mod a bit so there will likely be some interesting new stuff soon for this tech.
 

raxo2222

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I see that someone wanted to mirror tech name with Trap Fishing.
We can keep old name - no need to mirror names.
 

Thunderbrd

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I see that someone wanted to mirror tech name with Trap Fishing.
We can keep old name - no need to mirror names.
Interesting reasoning for the name change suggested. Perhaps it wasn't mirroring so much as to more clearly distinguish between the two. I wonder how many people feel that without that distinction, Trap Fishing seems like something that should be coming along with Trapping as a whole. Maybe it's Trap Fishing that could use a better name - like Fish Traps? (though now we're getting a bit more specific - Fishing itself is an issue we'll be looking at later too according to the notes.)
 

Maltazard

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So you'll have hunting, trap hunting and trap fishing (isn't there also spear fishing and then fishing? Same issue really). Redundant, but at least consistent. If I'm not mistaken trapping actually comes before hunting in the tech tree as well, though trap hunting seems like a more specific concept of hunting, so that would be logically wrong, unless you believe that it's possible to develop the broader concept from the more specific one - getting into semantics now.
 

Thunderbrd

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isn't there also spear fishing and then fishing?
Yes, and Fishing itself is, in light of all this, kinda vague so is up for future discussion for name change - like line fishing or bait fishing or net fishing. Maybe we need an Ice Fishing tech somewhere lol.
though trap hunting seems like a more specific concept of hunting, so that would be logically wrong, unless you believe that it's possible to develop the broader concept from the more specific one - getting into semantics now.
Maybe it is... I think we do have 'hunting' as a tech later in the tree... yes confirmed. So we ARE working currently on this as an idea and perhaps we should be also considering if that tech should adopt a different name. However, one interesting observation here is that we are considering Chasers to open up at Persistence Hunting, Trackers to open up at Tracking, and Hunters to open up at Hunting and yet we would not have any type of hunter at trap hunting. And is trap hunting even hunting at all or is it a very different way to get animal meat that isn't really hunting at all?

Of course, this is all ABOUT semantics and its interesting to hear all viewpoints on how the words are received and if it seems logical or not to those on the playing end. So yeah, all commentary is valid here.
 

Maltazard

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I suppose one way of achieving consistency would be to name the tech after the tools used, rather than the activity - so spear hunting would become harpoons, and then net fishing (or fishing traps?) as you said. But then you would have to change half the tech tree or more if you wanted to strictly abide by that principle.

Did humans invent new activities or just new tools to perform the same activity differently, or better? Or both? Perhaps answering this question for each tech might help decide whether to name it by the tools or the activity itself. Ie, there's rapid prototyping, which to my understanding is just making custom machined parts (and tools to make parts). Should it be renamed custom machining then, or does it already involve 3d printing and other techniques as well, so the broader term for the general activity is better?

"Hunting" seems a little vague on the other hand, I reckon hunting is the same tech from vanilla Civ imported straight into C2C, as seen by the art and quote, but then had its position and effects changed. So it doesn't live to the level of specificity that C2C techs have. This is a bit of a recurring issue with techs that were already present in the base game, they stand out a lot.
 
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Somebody613

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I just realize that "Trap Hunting" sounds too close to "Hunting for (as opposed to with) Traps", loool.
The reason why "Trap Fishing" avoids it, is because it makes a bit more sense to "hunt" (a more generic action) traps than to "fish" them, lol.
 

Thunderbrd

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I just realize that "Trap Hunting" sounds too close to "Hunting for (as opposed to with) Traps", loool.
I had not considered that but it's an excellent point.

This has been a great discussion. Let's keep it snappy and go to vote, which I think we've already achieved here but people have the right to change their minds of course. I'm not hearing any new or alternative suggestions either in all this.
 

Thunderbrd

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We can continue to debate the previous matter on the table as we vote on it - votes can be changed even after they have been made but the poll closes in 2 days.

In the meantime, let's open up discussion on,

Item #2: The Tech Scraping (x6/y3) had been suggested to be changed to 'Stone Peelers'

I think the reasoning behind this was that surely 'scraping' was something that people had been doing long before they were people but this represented the emergence of more specialized tools to do so. My reluctance with this is that it limits us to conceiving of such tools as literally stone, which could've been obsidian, wood, bamboo, strong grass, etc as well. And is it peeling to trim and tear off fur or bark or fat from under hides or is it something else?

This is going to be the first in a sequence of challenges made to Scraping, Chopping, Piercing, Sewing, and culminating into Carving, which has a unit based rename suggestion, so as to help us consider where this is going.
Did humans invent new activities or just new tools to perform the same activity differently, or better? Or both? Perhaps answering this question for each tech might help decide whether to name it by the tools or the activity itself.
I think this was one of the lines of thought that led into this suggestion in the first place.

Obviously this rename has a number of potential alternatives built right in immediately, such as Peeling, Scraping Tools, Peeling Tools, etc...
 

Thunderbrd

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Ok, so Item #1 is fully resolved and no change will ensue on the naming of the Trapping tech:
upload_2022-5-4_13-20-23.png

I'm not sure how Item#2 got NO response or comment but I will give it another day or so for discussion assuming maybe y'all just didn't see that it came up for discussion as soon as I put the poll up for Item#1. To repeat:



Item #2: The Tech Scraping (x6/y3) had been suggested to be changed to 'Stone Peelers'

I think the reasoning behind this was that surely 'scraping' was something that people had been doing long before they were people but this represented the emergence of more specialized tools to do so. My reluctance with this is that it limits us to conceiving of such tools as literally stone, which could've been obsidian, wood, bamboo, strong grass, etc as well. And is it peeling to trim and tear off fur or bark or fat from under hides or is it something else?

This is going to be the first in a sequence of challenges made to Scraping, Chopping, Piercing, Sewing, and culminating into Carving, which has a unit based rename suggestion, so as to help us consider where this is going.

Obviously this rename has a number of potential alternatives built right in immediately, such as Peeling, Scraping Tools, Peeling Tools, etc...

I will include those possible name and anything else suggested in the poll as well. This one has the potential to set precedence for other name considerations.

Opinions?
 

Thunderbrd

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Thunderbrd

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No need to rename anything IMO
There are some 50 of these renaming proposals we will be taking a look at individually. If you say just this to each, at least you're sharing your perspective so that's good. Some of them I feel we should. This one... yeah kinda ambivalent though I kinda remember why it was proposed. And I'm not sure we want to declare that it's specifically stone. But for the suggester, it didn't sit right that we'd already have been doing this of a sort long before language and fire and so it seemed to him it needed something more to specify the increased complexity of tool usage being indicated here.
 

Somebody613

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There are some 50 of these renaming proposals we will be taking a look at individually. If you say just this to each, at least you're sharing your perspective so that's good. Some of them I feel we should. This one... yeah kinda ambivalent though I kinda remember why it was proposed. And I'm not sure we want to declare that it's specifically stone. But for the suggester, it didn't sit right that we'd already have been doing this of a sort long before language and fire and so it seemed to him it needed something more to specify the increased complexity of tool usage being indicated here.
Here comes a stupid suggestion (which I myself hate, but it's for LULZ):
[Human_Tools_Application: Scraping].
[...: Chopping].
[...: Piercing].
Again, it's stupid, but the idea is to make it "systematic".
Still stupid, though.
 

Thunderbrd

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Here comes a stupid suggestion (which I myself hate, but it's for LULZ):
[Human_Tools_Application: Scraping].
[...: Chopping].
[...: Piercing].
Again, it's stupid, but the idea is to make it "systematic".
Still stupid, though.
Well, it does suggest Scraping Tools, Chopping Tools etc... so as to say it's not that we haven't been doing it but we're starting to get better at it and dedicate certain tools to the job and SAVE those tools for later reuse...
 
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